Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Wed Apr 08, 2020 18:28

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next
Author Message
 Post subject: Young drivers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 04:43 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
From another thread:

IanH wrote:
Couple of issues regarding jedimafia's post.

I believe that it does take time and experience to assess and enhance your driving skills.

I also fear that youthful exuberance and belief that they are surrounded by a cushion of invincibility is the cause of our dreadful boy racer fatality stats. (we've got four dead in 2 out of 3 fatacs in South Cumbria this week alone - the other was a biker).

Overtaking is a common cause of these boy racer accidents.


I couldn't agree more that this is a very big road safety problem. It's also difficult to address. Many young drivers have the following characteristics:

* Inexperience
* Overconfidence
* Peer pressure

Can we please try and have a brainstorming session and see if we can come up with any good ideas?

Personally I suspect that "overconfidence" is the key factor we should be attacking. If we ran TV commercials showing them their own mistakes and explaining how small the gap is between a scare and a death, I think we might be able to get some progress.

I also think issuing a graded driving licence would help to prove to them that they don't know it all.

But can we come up with anything better?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Young drivers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 10:53 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 09:16
Posts: 3655
SafeSpeed wrote:
If we ran TV commercials showing them their own mistakes and explaining how small the gap is between a scare and a death, I think we might be able to get some progress.


This is a tough one. I passed my test at 17. Bought a Ford Corsair 2000E. Drove like an idiot. At that age you feel immortal.

I have an 18 year old who is taking her test in a couple of weeks. Her favorite film is "fast and furious". It does worry me but was just the same when I was her age.

Just look how many still take up smoking inspite of all the publicity... :?

Smoking is a much bigger problem to society than dangerous driving. If you can't control that what chance have you got. At least she does not smoke so it's one thing less to worry about.

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject: Re: Young drivers
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:38 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 11:19
Posts: 1795
SafeSpeed wrote:

Can we please try and have a brainstorming session and see if we can come up with any good ideas?

Personally I suspect that "overconfidence" is the key factor we should be attacking. If we ran TV commercials showing them their own mistakes and explaining how small the gap is between a scare and a death, I think we might be able to get some progress.

I also think issuing a graded driving licence would help to prove to them that they don't know it all.

But can we come up with anything better?


Might be better to go for their coolness or manliness. Hinting fast driving is a sign of being poor in the bedroom department or that killing your friends by driving like a plonker is seriously uncool. It would be good to get lads who have done it, especially if they are now in prison or hideously disfigured. If you can get them all to say 'I thought it wouldn't happen to me' it might start to have an effect on today's young drivers.Another factor in the death rate must be the propensity of youth not to wear seatbelts. Pictures of people that have headbutted the windscreen are another good source of the yuck factor which might put off a few of them.

Dying young might not scare them but if you can put in the fear of permanent disablement which is more frightening it might start to get through. The max drive idea is a good one and perhaps getting the IAM involved in the cruise scene somehow might also make head way.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 11:44 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 12:01
Posts: 4814
Location: Essex
Quote:
Smoking is a much bigger problem to society than dangerous driving. If you can't control that what chance have you got. At least she does not smoke so it's one thing less to worry about.


Maybe, but, with the exception of enforced passive smoking, smokers *** their own lives up, whereas dangerous drivers quite often take innocent victims with them.

Back to Paul's brainstormer:

I don't think I went through the "drive like a moron" phase after I passed my test. However, I am sure I was naieve {?sp} and did not appreciate even 10% of the hazards. I definitely learned car control early, primarily thanks to cross-ply tyres. These broke away very early compared to the modern tyre but, more importantly, did so gracefully, at moderate speed and with catchable warning,

My parents insisted that I have a few paid-for lessons AFTER I passed my test, to advance my driving - including motorway driving and how to overtake safely on single carriageway roads. I was VERY grateful for these few hours. I wonder if somehow this could be worked into the routine curriculum?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 16:16 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
A lot of young drivers also seem to suffer from lack of confidence.

It continues to surprise me when I see low-powered cars being driven in a very cautious, timid manner and find some really cool-looking young guy or girl at the wheel.

Not everyone has fallen victim to the "2Fast 2Furious" mentality.

There is no substitute for getting serious miles under your belt, ideally on rural A-roads.

On the overconfidence point, we really need more trafpols in urban areas. Too often such officers as remain are cruising the motorways and arterial roads rather than the inner city. I do a lot of driving in Manchester and frequently witness appallingly knobbish behaviour from other drivers, which seems to go unnoticed and unpunished by the police.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 16:54 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
I've been mulling this over and trying to narrow things down.

I think there are three key issues that we must try and address.

1) I think it's always going to be "manly" to take risks. But if we could do anything to make taking road risks stupid instead of manly, then that would be a move in the right direction and would neutralise some of the peer pressure problems.

2) The overconfidence problem should be modified by near miss experiences, but for this to work, they have to recognise their near misses (and crashes for that matter) as personal failures - not badges of honour - nor as "great stories". Road safety lessons in schools I reckon. Before they get their licences they should already know that they will be responsible when they get into emergencies. We could also warn them what to expect - to expect that they'll make mistakes and get into trouble on the road.

3) The inexperience problem can only be addressed with accelerated learning. We have to give them the best possible learning "toolkit". I think that hazard perception test fit into this category. It doesn't teach hazard perception, but it does make hazard perception problems recognisable and thereby accelerates learning.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 17:30 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Sun Jun 27, 2004 14:47
Posts: 1659
Location: A Dark Desert Highway
young men always have and always will take risks and try to impress their mates. Most people think it won't happen to them also and when it does happen to me I keep surving though I don't think I can keep this immortality up. Seriously, 1 bad ish RTA, menigitis, house burnt down, blew my self up at work, been battered by maternal livestock, broke neck plus more and I'm still here...

When you are young you just don't think of the what might happen, old people die and you arn't going to get old, ever.

New drivers get hammered for insurance and you think that would be an incentive to make sure you don't crash, but you paid for the insurance last month and it won't be paid for again 'till next year. No worries. So you can't say they're all driving high powered cars because they just can't afford to run them.

I rekon getting IAM on the MAX Power scene would be a good thing if it could be presented in away that doesn't alienate them. So don't go telling them "you must drive like this", it might be better to say, "drive this way and the insurance goes down, you'll get more pleasure out of driving and people will give you some respect". It's no good telling them it's not fun to drive fast 'cos it is, it's just not so much fun when you kill your mate or they won't ride with you.

I'd have to say that teaching people to drive instead of pass a test would have to be a way forward.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 17:44 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
Before I passed my driving test I had been on several drives of over 50 miles with my dad supervising. We even did Runcorn-Lytham St Annes via the old A49 route as learners are obviously banned from the M6.

There is no substitute for experience.

It could be hard to achieve, but it might be a good idea to require every learner to do a 50-mile drive under supervision.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 22:47 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 00:14
Posts: 535
Location: Victoria, Australia
I've said it before on other threads. Nothing beats training and I still believe that a staggered license process where training is the only way to move through the license levels would be a really good start.

Level 1 - maximum 1 passenger & max power/weight limit on car, possible time limits for driving with exceptions for job requirements. Driving course required to move to level 2 and could be done at any time during the 1st year of the probation period.

Level 2 - current probationary license rules, maybe continuation of power/weight limitations. Supplementary driving course to move to a full license which would need to be completed during the last year of probation but would not shorten the probation period. If not completed during the probation period the probation period would simply continue until the course was attended.

Level 3 - full license after minimum 3 years on probation.

Shock advertising has not worked in Australia, and we really have some shock inducing advertising, because the public become hardened to it. When the advertising incorporates "speed kills" propaganda the young and the knowledgeable simply scoff at the entire campaign.

I really feel that education is the ONLY way to get through to the young people and that needs to begin in primary school. Not a “Speed Kills” education program but a program directed at educating kids about the dangers of driving and techniques to identify hazards.

Maybe some of the concepts from the American school model could incorporated and modified to suit the UK environment.

_________________
Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 23:23 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 00:24
Posts: 2400
Location: Kendal, Cumbria
I think the most useful thing we can work on is to "train people to train themselves".

We can't stop young people from being overconfident - it's a basic feature of human nature without which we'd never learn to walk! Clearly it's inappopriate to learning to drive, but we have to acknowledge it as a basic "given". Any approach based on "social engineering" that tries to stop young people from thinking that way is bound to fail - it's like telling young people not to have sex!

We can't give advanced training to new drivers as they haven't yet gained the skills nor the experience to benefit from it. In the early stages of our driving careers the subtle nuances of advanced driving are way beyond their necessarily limited comprehension.

But what we can do is accelerate the process of gaining experience, to give new drivers the "self-learning" skills that taught them to walk. This is something that seems to be sadly lacking in the current "learn by rote" methods used at the moment, where we teach new drivers how to pass a driving test and little else.

We need to impress upon new drivers some simple basics, such as...

1. The need to do emergency braking is NOT a normal part of driving. If you ever get in a situation where it has to be used (and lets face it, new drivers tend to do so pretty much daily), then have a long hard think about how that situation arose, and what you could have done to prevent it. What could you have seen that you missed, and why weren't you looking for it?

2. If you come into conflict with another road user there is nearly always something you could have done that would have prevented it. Don't simply blame the other guy and drive on, even if he was clearly at fault there is almost always something you could have done too - go and think what it was.

...and so on. Encouraging these sort of thought processes lets drivers subconsciously learn how to drive safely, regardless of their level of skill or car control. Driving Instructors don't teach these sort of things because they have no need to. The nearest we get at present is a chat from a TrafPol, but sadly that's getting less and less likely as PC Gatso takes over the "educational" role.

_________________
CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Dec 12, 2004 23:40 
Offline
Member
Member
User avatar

Joined: Thu Apr 15, 2004 09:16
Posts: 3655
JT wrote:
IThe nearest we get at present is a chat from a TrafPol, but sadly that's getting less and less likely as PC Gatso takes over the "educational" role.


I agree. Getting pulled by the police is the best way of calming someone down, before it's too late.

But it is getting less likely to happen nowadays since robocops have taken over.

A young driver lost his life recenty near to where I live. In the a speed camera zone... :( it was down to dangerous driving... :?

_________________
Speed camera policy Kills


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 00:11 
Offline
Member
Member

Joined: Wed Nov 10, 2004 00:14
Posts: 535
Location: Victoria, Australia
Quote:
We can't give advanced training to new drivers as they haven't yet gained the skills nor the experience to benefit from it. In the early stages of our driving careers the subtle nuances of advanced driving are way beyond their necessarily limited comprehension.

Once again I am confronted with this concept of "advanced" driving. I am NOT talking about "advanced" driving, rather I am talking about "defensive" driving where the new driver is put into danger situations and taught driving techniques to assist them to avoid them.

Brake control is the single most important lesson to teach the average new driver who can only afford an old banger without ABS. Demonstrations of the effect of the 2 second rule and training on the effects of hard acceleration and braking in a corner (not laps of a track, just one corner!) Training on things like the 2 second rule, making allowances for an escape route, even when stationary at the lights, and general courtesy on the roads are more important than learning how to drive around a race course quickly and how to corner faster.

When I did the car control course as a young driver I was AMAZED how hard it was to stop at 35mph. Before the course I thought I could run faster than 35mph and stopping from such a low speed would never be an issue and after the course I was MUCH more careful when driving in a built-up area.
[/quote]

_________________
Ross

Yes I'm a hoon, but only on the track!!!!


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 00:21 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
JT wrote:
I think the most useful thing we can work on is to "train people to train themselves".


Yep. I'll go for that. I also think it's likely to be a great deal easier than it appears.

JT wrote:
We can't stop young people from being overconfident - it's a basic feature of human nature without which we'd never learn to walk! Clearly it's inappopriate to learning to drive, but we have to acknowledge it as a basic "given". Any approach based on "social engineering" that tries to stop young people from thinking that way is bound to fail - it's like telling young people not to have sex!


I don't think we can prevent overconfidence, but I bet we can make the average degree of overconfidence somewhat smaller. I think you planned to fail by setting your sights too high.

Basically we need to communicate: "Learn from your misteakes and be realistic about your abilities". That should make a useful difference to both the learning and the overconfidence.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 00:23 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
M3RBMW wrote:
Once again I am confronted with this concept of "advanced" driving. I am NOT talking about "advanced" driving, rather I am talking about "defensive" driving where the new driver is put into danger situations and taught driving techniques to assist them to avoid them.


This is a UK / Australia difference. In the UK when we say "advanced" we're talking about "road craft" skills not vehicle handling skills.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon Dec 13, 2004 18:05 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Thu Aug 05, 2004 13:07
Posts: 204
Location: Kent
Is it possible that our driving instructors are pressured to get young drivers through the test ASAP? It seems there is a lot of competition amongst the driving schools and most people that are buying into their service are after one thing only - a pass.

I remember my driving instructor taking a lot of time to talk about life after my test and showing me just how much you have to learn. Admittedly I was already interested, but some insight into the importance of further skills should be compulsory.


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 15:25 
Offline
Police Officer and Member
Police Officer and Member

Joined: Thu Dec 09, 2004 22:53
Posts: 565
Location: Kendal
Education and continued training must be the way forward.
Education not only in driving techniques, but also in courtesy, consideration and concentration.
Bt it MUST be relevant to them.
I like to think (every trafpol does), that their roadside education is appropriate and relevant. I like to in some way 'disarm' the young driver by making him realise that I really care about his and other's safety, rather than simply treading the tired line of 'it's the law'. However, I am 30 years their senior, and my message may not possess the 'coolness' it would have if given by one of their respected peers.

This is where advertising based road safety awareness would be able to play a major part.

Young 'boy racers' learn to drive very quickly, and if directed they can learn to drive very well. The problem is that they often don't retain the road safety message, they get overconfident, they respond easily to their excited young peers, they like to impress. Fighting these influences is a huge problem to overcome. When these kids die, we as trafpol stand at the scene thinking 'What the hell can we do to prevent this'.

I've said elsewhere that I would like to see perhaps a 2 part 'driving' test the second part two or three years after the first, where the new driver can display his acquired OAP skills along with his developed road courtesy, consideration and concentration. During that time they must display a 'new driver' plate.

Something which I'm aware of in dealing with many 'boy racers' is that there is often a bad accident behind an improved young driver. Now I wouldn't wish to encourage that kind of practical training, but it does get the message home.
I often wonder if there is any way that this kind of indelible message could be imprinted on the young mind in a safer way.

_________________
Fixed ideas are like cramp, for instance in the foot, yet the best remedy is to step on them.

Ian


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 16:19 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:47
Posts: 920
Location: South Bucks
IanH wrote:
I often wonder if there is any way that this kind of indelible message could be imprinted on the young mind in a safer way.


This is quite close to my heart at the moment as I have a 13 year old son who is showing a great interest in driving and speed.

I want to get him driving now (on private land somewhere) so he gets used to the car control issues by the time he takes to the road and, I hope, will have the capacity to absorb road safety issues.

How about a scheme which allows youngsters to drive old bangers on disused airfields?


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 17:30 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
Observer wrote:
IanH wrote:
I often wonder if there is any way that this kind of indelible message could be imprinted on the young mind in a safer way.


This is quite close to my heart at the moment as I have a 13 year old son who is showing a great interest in driving and speed.

I want to get him driving now (on private land somewhere) so he gets used to the car control issues by the time he takes to the road and, I hope, will have the capacity to absorb road safety issues.

How about a scheme which allows youngsters to drive old bangers on disused airfields?


I had the benefit of learning to drive at 14 on private land. I don't think anyone explained the attitude thing to me.

I'm trying to think back and it's not easy because I keep imposing knowledge that I now have on things that I did and thought in those days. I did have a few scrapes as a new driver. I well remember that my tyres used to develop bald lines across the width from emergency braking. No one had told me that I must be doing it wrong, and I didn't know any better. I do remember wanting to drive as well as I could - but lacked yardsticks to measure my performance against.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 19:07 
Offline
User

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 22:34
Posts: 603
Location: West Scotland
The actual driving test is nothing difficult so really everyone is being sent onto the roads naked and despite knee-jerk reactions just like speed kills although aimed at young drivers and the perception of young drivers I don't think it is that bad. So is it a case of better instructions before on the road or better education after passing? I would say better and more education after passing. The theory test seemed to address the 'better instruction before on the road' but has it really worked I wonder?

This also brings up an interesting subject of the middle age driver resting on their laurels thinking they are the perfect motorist and therefore becoming incompetent, is this worse than the young driver, who is,-

(1) Alert

(2) Still remembers highway code

(3) Usually in less powerful and smaller car

(4) Usually does less miles

-against the older driver who is usually the complete opposite of above?


Andrew

_________________
It's a scam........or possibly a scamola


Homer Simpson


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Dec 15, 2004 19:25 
Offline
Life Member
Life Member

Joined: Fri Mar 12, 2004 10:47
Posts: 920
Location: South Bucks
andys280176 wrote:
This also brings up an interesting subject of the middle age driver resting on their laurels thinking they are the perfect motorist and therefore becoming incompetent, is this worse than the young driver, who is,-

(1) Alert

(2) Still remembers highway code

(3) Usually in less powerful and smaller car

(4) Usually does less miles

-against the older driver who is usually the complete opposite of above?


Fair question generally but not sure whether your 1-4 are entirely relevant.

One thing to remember is there's no substitute for experience so, all else being equal, a young driver with 10k miles under his belt can't match a driver who has 500k miles. (Note the "all else being equal". In practice, it's perfectly reasonable to say that a young driver CAN compensate for inexperience and be as 'good' as a much more experienced driver.)

I'd have no problem with a re-testing regime at (say) 5 year intervals. What's more, there's a good case to raise the bar at intervals and impose a re-training requirement if a driver didn't pass.

I damn well should be a better (safer) driver now than when I passed my test (nearly thirty years ago) and I don't object to being put to the test.


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 30 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2  Next

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.275s | 13 Queries | GZIP : Off ]