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 Post subject: Dutch experiment
PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 09:41 
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I attended a Motorcycle Action Group rally at the weekend. It left from the Lickey Hills and ended in Birmingham town centre where a Mr Ian Much gave a wonderful speech on various issues. (Lovely guy)

One part of his presentation which stuck in my mind was when he mentioned a town in Holland which disbanded all traffic furniture in a very bold experiment. The result, he continued to say, was that people were unsure of what to do and so they were forced to think much more intensely about their driving.

The result? Accidents went down!

You could have knocked me over with a feather. I've done a search on this for more information to no avail so far. Does anyone know about this because if this story is true then surely it speaks volumes for SS and our cause.

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


Last edited by Big Tone on Mon Jul 16, 2007 08:49, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 09:54 
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Yep, it's definitely been discussed here before. I've heard that it can reduce congestion as well. Anyway it should definitely be looked into more here.

But sadly I suspect that the anti-car groups will no doubt try to stop it because it makes things nicer for motorists. Can't have that now, can we.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:12 
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Are you referring to this: Naked streets

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 10:24 
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Yeah, pleanty of discussions here and elsewhere. Search on:

Monderman
Naked Streets
Self-explaining roads
Hamilton Baily

It works because...

- it gives responsibility to road users
- it encourages interaction and courtesy

Personally I think we're just seeing the first glimmerings of light - the self explaining roads concept will be MUCH further developed.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 11:52 
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Thanks everyone. Interesting links and much reading material (phew) but now I actually feel quite depressed at the thought that no amount of evidence is ever going to be enough for this government.

When it comes to regulating speed though, if you allow the general public to decide what is a safe speed you are bound to get into a situation where drivers who are going too fast for the conditions will argue it was safe and the police saying no it wasn't.

You cannot have a situation where every case of excessive speed is argued over, otherwise the policing would be compromised. The thing about speed limits is that there is no argument, from the laws point of view, and that makes it simpler to enforce than the much more nebulous idea of what was 'safe for the conditions'. (just playing devils advocate here for a moment)

Enforcing what is safe is neigh-on impossible because each person will have his or her own opinion. Without enforceable speed limits, what else would the police have to work with? No amount of bobbies in cars will ever be enough to make the vigilant road bandit drive sensibly just as no amount of training will make them drive sensibly for the conditions.

That said, I believe even the nutters out there would drive more carefully if they were made to see the results of accidents, like I have to in my work (amongst other sad things). You can't become a good chef without seeing a few broken eggs, although I admit making them go to the morgue may be going a bit too far :yikes:

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 09, 2007 20:37 
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I'm not sure the 'average' British driver is ready for this yet,
as in Holland cyclists have priority over cars, so their drivers have less control over 'their teritory' to begin with so adding pedestrians is less of a culture shock.

In my limited experience the Dutch are good drivers and poor cyclists and most of them do both :roll:

fatboytim


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 15:34 
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fatboytim wrote:
I'm not sure the 'average' British driver is ready for this yet, as in Holland cyclists have priority over cars, so their drivers have less control over 'their teritory' to begin with so adding pedestrians is less of a culture shock.

Planned (or happened) on Exhibition Road in London apparently.


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 10, 2007 16:50 
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fatboytim wrote:
I'm not sure the 'average' British driver is ready for this yet...


We do pretty much fine in supermarket car parks. Same sort of idea really...

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 00:00 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
fatboytim wrote:
I'm not sure the 'average' British driver is ready for this yet...


We do pretty much fine in supermarket car parks. Same sort of idea really...


Most supermarket carparks have signs, road markings, bollards and islands etc. similar to the highway.

When working for the LA Highways, I occasionally drove thru pedestrianised areas to get to site, moving at the speed of tickover in 1st (covering the brake), seemed the appropriate speed.
I am not against the idea, I just don't know how the average and below drivers (for whatever reason, current policy or character defect ), will cope with a 'give and take' roadsharing policy, are they still capable of deciding appropriate speed (I'm thinking of the WI women caught by the camera they campaigned for).

fatboytim


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 11, 2007 01:32 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
We do pretty much fine in supermarket car parks. Same sort of idea really...

Country lanes too.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 21, 2007 01:29 
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I've seen these Big Tone, the pavement and road is usually paved in either cobbles or block paving with with no distinction across the surface.

My opinion is that; YES, it's OK...... except that the little towns that I've seen it in all have a bypass built first. Then the former roads and main roads of the town have been treated in this way.

You cannot simply take a British town with high traffic levels and do this...

You first have to create a; "By-Pass"......which MUST remain;.........a By-Pass, and NOT a new industrial development centre!


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2007 21:07 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
fatboytim wrote:
I'm not sure the 'average' British driver is ready for this yet...


We do pretty much fine in supermarket car parks. Same sort of idea really...


Seen it a few times on road junctions when lights fail - biggest danger is who takes right of way ( except for busses and cabs,of course)

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Jul 24, 2007 01:25 
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In Britain it would be traffic from the right.......from the left in Europe of course.

But, as I said before. The Dutch towns that I've seen this implemented in have first had the "through" traffic diverted away from the centre.....

Here in "Blighty" we don't know what that means......

WE.......think that a "Bypass" is a NEW "industrial centre" opportunity!...

From which, through traffic will soon require; a bypass!

:roll: Gord Elpus!.............


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sun Jul 29, 2007 23:40 
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fatboytim wrote:
I'm not sure the 'average' British driver is ready for this yet,
as in Holland cyclists have priority over cars, so their drivers have less control over 'their teritory' to begin with so adding pedestrians is less of a culture shock.

In my limited experience the Dutch are good drivers and poor cyclists and most of them do both :roll:

fatboytim

My bold. I disagree about the poor cyclists bit. Dutch kids are far more cycle/street-wise than their UK counterpart, in my opinion. They get compulsory traffic/roadsense lessons at primary school, and generally cycle to school at a far earlier age than most kids in the UK did when I was growing up there... and probably even more so nowadays, with increased car ownership and usage, and a UK society that is far more worried about everything from paedophiles to terrorists.

Having said that, the cycling infrastucture in the Netherlands is excellent, and cyclists are far more respected here than in the UK, and some cyclists do take advantage, but that's usually calculated arrogance, as opposed to ignorance. And the drivers understand that that's just the way it is, and accept it.

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p.s. I am still absolutely floored by Paul's death. May 2008 be the greatest ever for SafeSpeed. His spirit lives on.


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