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PostPosted: Fri Jan 18, 2008 20:52 
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The Rush wrote:
By the way, I don't miss it at all. Nor did I miss the training wheels on my bike any more than I imagine one might upon deciding the time had come to set aside their crutches.


Yes, I know the feeling. I don't miss wearing a tie, for much the same reasons. It was a great day when I threw my collection in the bin - all except one - a black one!


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 05:12 
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For the past six days, I've driven 12 hour shifts, covering at least 150 miles per shift; Saturday I covered 300 miles.
I didn't use or need the speedometer ONCE.
Face it: Your speedometer starts out as a learning tool, until your Seat-O'-da-pants meter and your eyes become sufficiently well calibrated.
If a speed camera is a hammer, then your speedometer is a nail. Takes a lot more than those to build a quality home.
Valle Crucis wrote:
Thatsnews wrote:
Apparently it is generally accepted that drivers with advanced skills are able to drive faster and safer than other "ordinary" drivers who do not have the same level of skills.
It's the "are able to" which is the problem. For example, in what way "are they able to"? If they are stuck in a jam with a bunch of other drivers, they are not able to. If they try to overtake a bunch of drivers who are inferior to them, they could be killed if one pulls out, so they are "not able to". Basically, there are hundreds of ways in which drivers with advanced skills are not able to drive faster or safer than other "ordinary" drivers, so it is manifestly obvious that there can be no general acceptance - it depends on the circumstances.
Traffic conditions - density, flow speed, etc. probably contain most of the major external factors that determine how fast individual vehicles will decide to travel. Certainly any driver worth his salt would drive differently during working hours on a workday than after working hours on a workday, and differently on weekends, because of prevailing traffic conditions. (Imagine the traffic patterns prevailing when most people are asleep?)
Valle Crucis wrote:
Thatsnews wrote:
So the speed limits are not designed for the drivers who are more highly trained.
I don't think the level of the speed limits are "designed" as such. The fact that they each lie on a decimal boundary (30 mph, 40mph ...) suggest they are set, not at scientifically verifiable levels, but at memorable ones.

In short, the levels of the limit are set via a combination of science, common sense, cooperation and good reason. Oh, and politics of course, because we all (or at least most of us) have to agree when all is said and done.
In this golden oldie of a poll-thread, the esteemed Paul Smith gives three safety reasons for speed limits:
1) To firmly guide inexperienced and underskilled drivers away from exceeding safe limits by wild margins
2) To provide a ready means of prosecution of those who use speed dangerously
3) To provide a "standard warning" of expected hazard density

'spankthecrumpet' restates the 1st safety reason
adds what looks like a new safety reason - Some very atypical locations, such as road works
and gives a further environmental reason - Forcing people to use less petrol

Obviously there's more to this than safety, or environmental damage control.
For example, there are quite a few 'service roads' in Suburban Long Island that run parallel to some highways for more than 20 miles. Although 45 MpH on these service roads is usually perfectly safe, those who live in the homes that line these service roads lobbied hard and loud enough to lower the posted speed to 30MpH.
Why?
The residents of these nice houses with gazebos simply consider fast moving cars
Quote:
extremely distasteful and unpleasant
Some people just prefer the sense that they have control over other people.

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1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 05:33 
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On March 3rd, 2006, in an old thread called "Degrees of risk",
Roger wrote:
4) To kowtow to those who don't understand but have clout
5) To raise revenue
6) Perceived oil preservation and emission reduction
7) To provide a laminar flow on approaches to bottlenecks to prevent what otherwise would be stop/start. [Actually this one is good]
8) To minimise perceived risk of bridge/support damage if any bend is involved (ie to minimise tangential and lateral forces to infrastructure)

I think 4, 6 & 8 are based on fallacious reasoning.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 16:10 
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weepej wrote:
PeterE wrote:
On the vast majority of the UK road network your proposition is entirely untrue,


I travel at 30mph in 30 limits. Its quite often I'm overtaken, and the person drives off at about 35 mph (and had approached me at that sort of speed as well).

I travel at 40mph in 40 limits. Its quite often I'm overtaken (easier to do, they are normally dual carrigeways), and the person drives off at about 45 mph (and had approached me at that sort of speed as well).

I nearly always catch up to them at the next junction.

I very rarely catch anybody up on the road itself.



But were these drivers doing it in a dangerous place or situation or maner and if so does it also bother you when a police vehicle does the same?

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 21:09 
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The Rush wrote:
the esteemed Paul Smith gives three safety reasons for speed limits:
1) To firmly guide inexperienced and underskilled drivers away from exceeding safe limits by wild margins
2) To provide a ready means of prosecution of those who use speed dangerously
3) To provide a "standard warning" of expected hazard density


There's another+another reason, or at least an effect. They set expectations.

I'll give one example. I'm a slow coach. Right now, a slow-coach is within their rights to poodle along at any speed they like - there usually doesn't appear to be a "lower limit". Where I live in England, for example, in August and September you often see huge steam tractors going from place to place, on the roads at 4 mph - no joke.

But most slow-coaches, being aware that you can do 60, show some decency and get up to a good speed when it's OK to do that. Take the limit away, and they would still be well within their rights to drive at any speed they liked, but they might just like to drive much, much more slowly, in the absence of anything at all to set the pace. Could you imagine the roads choked with oldies, going along at 15 mph and giving you the finger if you dared grumble about it? In that respect, maybe the limit sets the pace?


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 22:15 
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Quote:
August and September you often see huge steam tractors going from place to place, on the roads at 4 mph - no joke.


I am sure I remember reading somewhere that the "Last" Foden steam trucks built in the late thirties were actually good for up to 60MPH with a payload of around 4 tons.


Not bad going really!


(we might get to see more of these in the future when the oil runs out! :D )

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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 22:59 
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Big Tone wrote:
But were these drivers doing it in a dangerous place or situation or maner and if so does it also bother you when a police vehicle does the same?


It doesn't bother me in the slightest that I get overtaken whoever they are, but as I say more often than not I've caught up with them at the next junction.

Its usually at night, when people seem to think its OK to drive around much faster.

Which of course is probably why pedestrians who have had a drink are more likely to be KSI'ed, because at night a ped is likley to have had a drink and there are idiots around doing 45mph because they THINK the streets are empty.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 23, 2008 23:11 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
The Rush wrote:
the esteemed Paul Smith gives three safety reasons for speed limits:
1) To firmly guide inexperienced and underskilled drivers away from exceeding safe limits by wild margins
2) To provide a ready means of prosecution of those who use speed dangerously
3) To provide a "standard warning" of expected hazard density
There's another+another reason, or at least an effect. They set expectations.

I'll give one example. I'm a slow coach. Right now, a slow-coach is within their rights to poodle along at any speed they like - there usually doesn't appear to be a "lower limit". Where I live in England, for example, in August and September you often see huge steam tractors going from place to place, on the roads at 4 mph - no joke.

But most slow-coaches, being aware that you can do 60, show some decency and get up to a good speed when it's OK to do that. Take the limit away, and they would still be well within their rights to drive at any speed they liked, but they might just like to drive much, much more slowly, in the absence of anything at all to set the pace. Could you imagine the roads choked with oldies, going along at 15 mph and giving you the finger if you dared grumble about it? In that respect, maybe the limit sets the pace?
Sounds like a corollary for reason #3?
Anywhere there was a 50 MpH or higher posted 'limit', traffic is definitely not expected to behave in the same manner as in a 30MpH zone.

Maybe they should be called Pace Setters?

In Amerika, most of the nonresidential roads meant for traveling from state-to-state have a minimum speed 'limit' of 40MpH posted alongside an upper speed 'limit' sign which will never be lower than 55MpH. Below 40MpH for any reason, one is required to flash their hazard lights and stay in the righthand lane, or the shoulder.

Still, ultimately we have to accept that the posted speed 'limits' are probably no longer merely educated suggestions from a road and traffic engineer. The setting and changing of speed 'limits' today is largely done by people with ulterior motives leading a majority of sheeple that can't tell the difference between laws that serve the reasonable and prudent majority, and laws that primarily serve the privileged minority who designed them.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 11:42 
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weepej wrote:
It doesn't bother me in the slightest that I get overtaken whoever they are …


Nor me. I’m a slow-coach and I can’t be bothered about being over taken, as I get some much practice!

But there is a section of the driving community who experience satisfaction from the simple act of passing other drivers. Fill yer boots, I say, it doesn’t cost me anything, although when two meet up, it causes a helluva problem! It’s odd though. No one would feel "superior" by running past someone on the pavement! Yet the situation is reversed when driving cars.

I’d like to get the inside scoop on this– does anyone here have the urge to overtake, or are you happy to poodle along, like me? And does it make you mad when someone overtakes? Do you drive so that you aren’t passed by anyone? Who’s got the guff on this?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 12:54 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
weepej wrote:
It doesn't bother me in the slightest that I get overtaken whoever they are …


Nor me. I’m a slow-coach and I can’t be bothered about being over taken, as I get some much practice!

But there is a section of the driving community who experience satisfaction from the simple act of passing other drivers. Fill yer boots, I say, it doesn’t cost me anything, although when two meet up, it causes a helluva problem! It’s odd though. No one would feel "superior" by running past someone on the pavement! Yet the situation is reversed when driving cars.

I’d like to get the inside scoop on this– does anyone here have the urge to overtake, or are you happy to poodle along, like me? And does it make you mad when someone overtakes? Do you drive so that you aren’t passed by anyone? Who’s got the guff on this?


I think you're right and I pretty much plod along minding my own business too.

I've said it before but I'm convinced one of the many reasons I've survived for so long on the roads is because I never get into a pissing contest, and I use COAST. If someone overtakes me I just think "so what, your one car in front of me now - big deal!". "I wonder what are you going to do with the extra minute you have saved when you get back home?"

There are times when I might have what I call a mad minute. I accelerate hard and 'get it out of my system' so to speak. I think it's good for an engine to blow the cobwebs out occasionally but maybe I'm just using that as an excuse?

It's funny sometimes too when Jack the lad in his Golf or whatever tries to show how good his car is to me when I'm on my motorbike. There's no law, yet, about how quickly I can accelerate so it does put a smile on my face to sometimes show them how the power to weight ratio works :)

Some car drivers just don't seem to understand this. Once I've done my 0-70 in about 3.5 seconds I back off and they're a dot in my mirror. They usually overtake me to heal their wounded pride but I'm not about to show them how fast it can go.

Someone did an excellent post the other day about the ego thing on our roads.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 14:33 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
... No one would feel "superior" by running past someone on the pavement! Yet the situation is reversed when driving cars.

I’d like to get the inside scoop on this– does anyone here have the urge to overtake, or are you happy to poodle along, like me? And does it make you mad when someone overtakes? Do you drive so that you aren’t passed by anyone? Who’s got the guff on this?


I wonder if that's really a valid conclusion? I drive. Sometimes I get overtaken, sometimes I overtake. I'd never really stopped to wonder what those people who overtake me (or who I overtake) think of me!

Could I say, with just as much validity, that those who overtake me think "ha! Loooooser!" or "what a wimp!" as they pass me?

Lots of people (more often women than men, it has to be said) speak in those kinds of terms - that someone who overtakes is doing it to "assert themselves", "show off", "dominate" / "intimidate" other road users...

I often wonder if that's what people think of me when I overtake them?

My daily drive is a big, heavy diesel people carrier. Whilst I'm actually pretty impressed with its performance (for what it is!), in absolute terms, it ain't that quick! I would like to think that pretty much all the overtaking manoevres I make are barely perceptible to the overtakee. In fact, as long as they are aware of my presence, I really don't want to cause any more ripples in anyone's consciousness than that. I suppose it's possible that some of them might think me an insecure nutter who is out to "prove himself" in some way because he's hen-pecked at home (or whatever), but honestly, I think that if such people DO exist, the psychological problem is probably theirs! Certainly, I rarely think ANYTHING (either way) of those who overtake ME!

I do, of course, see overtakes that I would regard as "dangerous" and I think "what an idiot!" - but that's relative, to an extent, of course. I also spend a lot of my time on NSL single carriageways and I do try not to hold people up unnecessarily either. Our roads are crowded and selfishness on the road takes many forms...


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 14:39 
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weepej wrote:
...
Which of course is probably why pedestrians who have had a drink are more likely to be KSI'ed, because at night a ped is likley to have had a drink and there are idiots around doing 45mph because they THINK the streets are empty.


So drivers who exceed the speed limits are "idiots" and pedestrians who are too pissed to exercise due care when crossing a road are showing perfectly normal, acceptable social behaviour?

Right...

...and before we get into "that" argument again, I ought to point out that I in no way condone driving without due care and attention. The point I'm making is that I do not condone "walking" without due care and attention EITHER !!!


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 15:16 
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I noticed that too Mole but also..

weepej wrote:
Its usually at night, when people seem to think its OK to drive around much faster.



Where I live there are generally less people around at 3 am than 3 pm.

Ambulances and police vehicles go past my house a lot quicker at this time too.

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 15:25 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
But there is a section of the driving community who experience satisfaction from the simple act of passing other drivers.


Is there? How do you know this?
I suggest that there is a section of the driving community who are terminally impatient behind the wheel of a car and have a need, be it a time imposed reality or an imaginary one, to get along on their journey as quickly as possible. I don't believe these individuals think any differently about other drivers whether they travel from A to B without seeing another soul on the roads or whether they have to overtake a hundred Toms, Dicks and Harrys.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 15:35 
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Valle Crucis is right. I experience satisfaction from passing people, if I can perform a safe overtake that causes no problem to anybody else.

If I catch up with someone doing 40mph in a 60mph limit does it mean I am terminally impatient if I safely pass them? I just prefer to travel at a speed I choose with nothing in front of me than sit behind something going slower than I would otherwise. What is wrong with safe overtaking?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 15:45 
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So what does Thatsnews want with his own comments especially the ones without facts?

To be laugh at maybe, to look stupid or to be known as a liar?


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 15:48 
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semitone wrote:
Valle Crucis is right. I experience satisfaction from passing people, if I can perform a safe overtake that causes no problem to anybody else.

If I catch up with someone doing 40mph in a 60mph limit does it mean I am terminally impatient if I safely pass them? I just prefer to travel at a speed I choose with nothing in front of me than sit behind something going slower than I would otherwise. What is wrong with safe overtaking?


The problem with the impersonal nature of written forums is that people tend to take things personally or relate everything to themselves :roll:
I didn't say everyone who performs an overtake is terminally impatient, I said that there is a section of the driving community who drive impatiently. As a result they are perhaps less considerate and circumspect in when and how they perform an overtake and, as a result, their actions can appear as if they are cocking a snook at other drivers.
In general I'm sure most of us don't have any strong feelings one way or the other about those we overtake or who overtake us.

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Last edited by Rigpig on Thu Jan 24, 2008 17:18, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 15:55 
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Sometimes I will overtake someone where I don't need to, I don't need to get there faster, but it is perfectly safe to do so and I do it for practice.

But I don't feel like I need to be in front. Although it can be rather annoying when someone is deliberately getting in the way by driving much slower than everyone else queueing up behind them wants to go and they won't pull over to let anyone past.

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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 16:08 
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Rigpig wrote:
The problem with the impersonal nature of written forums is that people tend to take things personally or relate everything to themselves :roll:


I'm guilty. :bunker: Although there is a saying that the two people who will tell you the truth about yourself are your best friend and your worst enemy.

I think we see quite a bit of that here at times :D

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You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Thu Jan 24, 2008 18:20 
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Rigpig wrote:
Valle Crucis wrote:
But there is a section of the driving community who experience satisfaction from the simple act of passing other drivers.


Is there? How do you know this? I suggest that there is a section of the driving community who are terminally impatient behind the wheel of a car and have a need, be it a time imposed reality or an imaginary one, to get along on their journey as quickly as possible.


You say that no drivers experience satisfaction by passing others, yet you also say that they have an urge to get along quickly. Surely, if they get along quickly, they are then satisfied? So I don't quite get what you mean, I'm afraid... in any case, semitone seems to fit the bill.

He prefers to have nothing in front of him. That's an interesting idea, that is. Because you always have someone in front of you, somewhere. Perhaps it's because you can "see" the person in front of you? Is that the problem. Does being in front of them "satisfy" you?


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