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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 21:36 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
Ziltro wrote:
I've never had a problem... You can look down the side of them.


Of course there's no problem. I can't see any problem! Who said there was a problem???


Image



But the reason why I know that to be a fake photos ist


1. It appear as sourced on wikpedia und I know how to airbrush und use photo-shoppe software .. purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr! too...
:wink:

2. Ferdl died when a lorry with dodgy everything .. tyre blew und because of spongy brakes und a steering system which had not been maintained at all :furious: Poor Ferdl had not
one chance at 20 mph when it hit directly into driver door.. und crush his car und hit 4 other cars. :banghead: causing SI to those within. But only 5 cars involved really.

3. My hit .. He plough into me. He could have hit any one .. including the police vehicle. I was unlucky one. I got the fullest force of it all. I had left the text book tarmac/tyres in distance. He catapult my car into car in front from the sheer force.. this crunch car in front und in front und then a richochet to the sides beyond this point. :( :shock: :shock: :? :( :o :? :cry: :cry: :cry:


It not cause what happen in this photo you show.. nor does the Swiss report photo which in the linky I give :wink:

The only time the multiple of 10 or more vehicle occur.. I think.. was in densest fog whereby more than one twazak drive far too fast for conditions. :banghead: :furious:


The only other occasion was when an American soldier lose control on very busy German A/bahn in 1982.. about July. Ruhr basin. He cause 15 car pile up as they all at max speed in heavy conditions at the time really. :popcorn: He make serious timing error und cut up another car in overtake mode. It cause serious carnage und Germans in 1982 reacted with variable speed limits on these very dense stretches :popcorn:


You need to know the story behind decisions. Germany made good call on this really. But then they introduce set limit.. put scam under bridge at Mannheim und this A bahn now the most dangerous in whole of Germany :popcorn: in term of incidents :popcorn:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 21:43 
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I'm trying to imagine a "crowd of roads" :lol:

Two of those photographs are not in the UK. Not sure if that matters, but anyway.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 21:54 
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Ziltro wrote:
I'm trying to imagine a "crowd of roads" :lol:


It's just an idea. But OK, I can dig that - a road is actually a container of crowds, rather like a dance-hall. The difference is that only in Birkenhead dance halls do you get killed for crashing into someone, whereas on the roads, it can happen anywhere.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 22:02 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
WildCat wrote:
But that ist photo of a bike race going pear shape :popcorn: :wink:


I know. It just looks like a bunch of blokes lying underneath motorbikes, doesn't it! But it was an interesting shot of a "pile-up" because it shows it can happen to anyone. I'm sorry I've pissed off our friend, RobinXe, but I don't think he gets the thrust of it. My proposition is that roads are like crowds, and are this subjected to crowd controls in the same way that crowds are. Without "crowd controls" of some kind (either external or otherwise, TBD), history shows that pile-ups are inevitable. That is my case, and I don't hear anything that puts a dent in it, yet.



BUT Liebchen.. they not "inevitable"


Germany does not have that many on the derestircts in reality. Their problem ist in East und Rhein/Ruhr network which are limited und very dense in volume. :popcorn:


But if you use COAST.. are aware of traffic ahead .. behind in distance und in proximity. .,. you are more equipped to avoid conflicts. :wink:

Ach.. ja .. you only have to see a stampede of wild animals fleeing a danger or be aware of disasters like Hillsborough to know what happen when a crowd surge. (at very LOW speed und this not undermining what happen at that match. Cousin Jess was just an assistant teacher at time. Her school lost two boys und their fathers at the time... she say pins could be heard to drop in school such was the shock of it all.) :cry: :cry: :cry: :cry:


But what we saying ist that if we promote COAST more... have more police presence out there as visible.. we not need speed cams und we reduce accidents out there. :wink:

It about education.. educating to common sense und steady calm values.

Ach .. sure .. I foster kids. IG ist BiB und there are plenty of teachers und police und lawyers in family. We KNOW there ist hardcore who cannot be taught.. will not ever learn und will end up either in jail or dead :roll: They may TWOC.. obtain licence by some fluke.. ride a bicycle.. jay walk or rather aggressively "moon walk whilst drunk of drugged senseless" :furious: :banghead:

Some call it "Darwinism"

We call it "wasted l stupid life und wasted by the truly stupid too "

With our fosters though/ .. we prove that pleasant discipline .. sense of fun.. but STILL FIRM does actually work und command respect eventually. Our fosters? We do take in the easy ones for sure.. but usually we have the harder core.. released from youth detention.. problems which no one else will touch. But ...ach ja we had one- ,ay be two complete fail over the years .. but touching wood here.. we do manage to steer back to decent -ish overall.

Why we do? Ist rewarding to us und we rather like und TRUST children anyway. :lol:

Maybe perhaps .. :scratchchin: I hit nerve. We don't trust or we show fear when we walk past these kids. Fear.. dogs smell this und attack/ I think these kids also sense as ferals. :popcorn:


Ist an aside comment. If mods und Claire think fit. ..Do paste und split for a right :popcorn: of discussion in :soapbox:

I sorry if I taking thread somewhere else here.. :boxedin:

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Fine me for Safe Speed
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 22:07 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
Ziltro wrote:
I'm trying to imagine a "crowd of roads" :lol:


It's just an idea. But OK, I can dig that - a road is actually a container of crowds, rather like a dance-hall. The difference is that only in Birkenhead dance halls do you get killed for crashing into someone, whereas on the roads, it can happen anywhere.


Nay/.. in dance halls .. stampede if fire break out. :roll:

But if folk die if a speedy quickstep or foxtrot collide.. then it more COAST fail still :wink:

Und it also prove it not the speed .. but where impact occur which cause the danger :wink:


Now .. I take break.. I want to see Gene Hunt "fire up the Quattro again" :lol:

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien
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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 23:00 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
toltec wrote:
Valle Crucis wrote:
If Joe Bloggs depends on "looking around them", he’s being a bastard by chancing it.


So then next time I see the brake lights of the car in front of the car in front reflected from the wet tarmac underneath the car in front I should just wait for the car in front to brake because I am just making an assumption otherwise?


No - I'm saying that if Joe Bloggs depends on glimpsing the brake lights of the car in front of the car in front reflected from the wet tarmac underneath the car, he is an absolute menace and should receive a ban. I've no aversion to him using an assumption - we all do that.


We do make assumptions and depend on them though, for example we assume that the driver coming the other way is not going to swerve into our car as we pass. Sometimes this assumption is incorrect however the vast majority of the time it proves to be correct.

Drivers make assumptions all of the time some safer than others, it could be that experience is what makes these assumptions more accurate and hones the the ability to choose which ones are safe to make.

So I agree if Joe continually drives basing his and others safety on poor assumptions then he is a menace. On the other hand if Joe learns to read the situation around him then he can significantly increase his safety beyond following simple rules.

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 14, 2008 23:42 
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VC, you're the one showing yourself up here.

What is your fundamental problem with the concept that people can avoid accidents, even pile-ups, by leaving adequate space clear ahead of their vehicle?


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 10:34 
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The Rush wrote:
toltec wrote:
I am not sure most drivers are lemmings, so much as lazy.
If a driver is not responding to, but is instead using another driver's behavior as a proxy for his, it isn't automatically call it lazy, but it is a manifestation of herd mentality.


Fair enough, it is simplistic to label this as lazy, I do so because of my internal bias to label people who do not make an effort to think for themselves as such. Which is probably a lazy thing to do on my part.

I have not read the information you supplied the link and perhaps I should.

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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 13:49 
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toltec wrote:
Sometimes this assumption is incorrect however the vast majority of the time it proves to be correct.


That is why assumptions are so insidious. Because they are correct in the vast majority of cases, a simple person easily believes they are always correct!

toltec wrote:
it could be that experience is what makes these assumptions more accurate and hones the the ability to choose which ones are safe to make


Perhaps, or it could be that they are correct in the vast majority of cases, leading really crappy drivers to think they are doing OK, purely through chance. There are plenty of those out there, eh? They are accidents waiting to happen, but they don't even know it.


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 14:09 
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RobinXe wrote:
you're the one showing yourself up here.


I'll have to take your word on that, RobinXe.

RobinXe wrote:
What is your fundamental problem with the concept that people can avoid accidents, even pile-ups, by leaving adequate space clear ahead of their vehicle?


We’re way past that point. Let’s get synched up on this, then we’ll be able to have a proper chat. “Joe Bloggs” has a fundamental tension between progress and safety. If he leaves a long gap in front, someone will fill it and push him back. If he leaves a short gap, he gets smashed to bits if there’s a shunt. Coupled with that is all the usual “competitive spirit”, and all that other macho bullshit, but we can’t go down there.

You have an idea of an “adequate space clear ahead”. It’s a fine idea – I certainly use it myself. But one man’s “adequate space” is another man’s opportunity to nip in front. The tension is on to close the gap. I won’t explain that – just look at the pictures, or take a trip down the M6, eyeballing the guys in the fast lane. That’s the “fundamental problem”.

Like I say, I’m not altruistic enough to care much when their silver cars get compressed down to the width of a suitcase! It’s the delay and cost that bothers me most, if I’m honest with you (apart from when kids are involved). And the risk it poses to me, as well. I’m just being practical about that – I don’t like it when buffoons smash into me at 80 mph!


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PostPosted: Fri Feb 15, 2008 14:21 
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WildCat wrote:
I sorry if I taking thread somewhere else here.. :boxedin:


I know! There's so much going on here, and it's all my fault. I'll just say this. Crowd control is all about patterns, not individual behavior. To spot the patterns on the roads, you need to take a high level view. But when you take that view, individual drivers hate it because they didn't buy a car to "slow down" or "wait in line"! The ad said they'd be zooming down the highway, totally free. People aren't getting what they paid for, you know - that whole "Top Gear" sports car buzz. And when you pay lots for the experience, and you don't get it, it makes you mad. That's what's happening.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 16, 2008 13:21 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
theboxers wrote:
...petard...
In your dreams, tb!

In reality VC. :lol:

You have :? yourself in your calculations. Yes braking from 70 to 0 over 100m would take approx 7-8 seconds. But that would make the stopping time 8-9 seconds. However I did not ask about braking distance.

I asked about stopping distance. A subtle, yet important, difference that reduces stopping "times" significantly.

Maybe I was at fault for not making clear where I was going with my questions. However, I thought you would have been able to work it out for yourself.


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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 01:00 
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WildCat wrote:
Valle Crucis wrote:
RobinXe wrote:
If you're not looking further ahead than the rear of the car ahead


There is no way for you behind to know whether the one in front is looking further ahead.

Basically, this means that if you assume that the driver in front is looking further ahead, then you are a horrible liability as well. No explanation is needed - just see the picture above for the outcome of that "chain of assumption". Assumption is the mother of all screw-ups.


That ist the photo of a scrap yard.


Are you SURE about that??

http://www.learn2live.co.uk/photoalbum.htm

This link says M42, Birmingham...

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 21, 2008 11:56 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
But when you take that view, individual drivers hate it because they didn't buy a car to "slow down" or "wait in line"! The ad said they'd be zooming down the highway, totally free. People aren't getting what they paid for, you know - that whole "Top Gear" sports car buzz. And when you pay lots for the experience, and you don't get it, it makes you mad. That's what's happening.


People don't go to the M42 to get that "Top Gear" sports car buzz (something tells me you're not a fan). They go to a nice quiet A or B road. I know I do, and I enjoy it immensely. They go on the M42 to get from Over Here to Over There.

As far as I can tell, your point when boiled down is that major motorway pile-ups are caused by people becoming angry & frustrated that they can't drive their cars like the people on TV do, so they vent their spleen by driving in to the car in front. Right, I see....


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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 04:12 
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Mind you, Johnny. There was the story of a bus driver who became so hacked off with city driving that he drove straight into a bus stand at a bus station.

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PostPosted: Mon Feb 25, 2008 10:27 
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I thought bus drivers could do no wrong!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 19:36 
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Winding all the way back to the original topic of the Cinema/TV advert, am I alone in feeling very uncomfortable at the implied message that 'if you hit me at 30mph or less, I will just get up and walk away' whereas the reality is that the little girl will probably be seriously injured, mentally traumatised and could well be in a wheelchair for the rest of her life. But at least she is not dead. So thats alright then. Simplistic drivel. Advertising Standards Authority anyone?


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 21, 2008 20:13 
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roger206 wrote:
Winding all the way back to the original topic of the Cinema/TV advert, am I alone in feeling very uncomfortable at the implied message that 'if you hit me at 30mph or less, I will just get up and walk away' whereas the reality is that the little girl will probably be seriously injured, mentally traumatised and could well be in a wheelchair for the rest of her life. But at least she is not dead. So thats alright then. Simplistic drivel. Advertising Standards Authority anyone?


Oh true. Once upon a time we had the advert of a boy playing on a road. Kicking a can. It flicked to the car .. then to the boy.

Screech of brakes and the image of the can rattling in the road.

You knew what had happened. The advert did two things: it warned of the dangers of playing on a busy road and it warned the driver that a child might be there. It was a good advert as it hit both parties as I recall.

The focus should be on safe crossing.. showing how to use the roads and directed at everyone instead of implying all OK and rosy coloured - so long as you stick to the lolly sign. :banghead:

Focus should be on COAST and simply using this to avoid or reduce the likelihood of accident

But single focus policy reaps its rewards. UK has slumped from top position of safest roads to 4th place for motorways and even lower as regards urbans. Sources with links have already been posted. It seems foreign press carried these stories. UK press was apparently gagged by virtue of its fail to appear in the UK press. :popcorn: My wife has posted all the links onto this forum and summarised in English what they all said. She used a few sources .. French/German/Italian/Swiss - which all supported the nub of the content :popcorn: and supplied the links when she posted them all up to this board. They are not "single focus on speed" and admit that the cyclists/pedestrians/children require even better road safety education. :popcorn:

Only here? :scratchchin: Speed issues became a nice little earner to the detriment of all other safety issues :roll: It also provided jobs for the otherwise "difficult to employ" :popcorn:

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 24, 2008 00:06 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
I don’t like it when buffoons smash into me at 80 mph!


Quite.

The quality of the grammar and spelling in your posts (though, not necessarily the content) speak volumes with regard to crash protection in modern vehicles.

I, personally, try at all times to avoid using the crash protection devices fitted to my car. I prefer to use the on-board computer; it positions the car for observation, anticipates potential conflict with other road users, acts accordingly, and at all times tries to avoid interaction with mouth-breathing idiots seemingly hell-bent on "smashing" me and my car to bits.

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