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 Post subject: Road Signs
PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 11:09 
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Hi,
I was studying a managerial course a couple of years ago and on thing that was mentioned was that "on your way home look at all the road signs on your normal journey and note how many that you haven't seen before". This exercise was unbelievable as I noticed for the first time a number of critical signs that have always been there. I was living in Derbyshire at the time.

I was wondering if anybody on here has any knowledge of this type of study or links to web sites as I am now finishing off my Mechanical Engineering Degree and it is all about innovation and design.

I believe that there is a very innovative solution to this "not noticing signs" phenomenon.

Any help/information would be more than appreciated.

Wayne


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 12:48 
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The French go in for a lot of animated LED signs, which seem VERY effective.
However, maybe that's because we are not used to them.
I have a couple of pictures if you are interested - my email address is in my profile.

I suspect in a few cases, that it's not just a question of WHAT the sign looks like, but where it is put in relation to the road, and the hazard ahead.
There is a bend warning sign near my home, which I had not see before there was an accident there, because I was always looking ahead at the bend as a potential hazard, and so did not see the sign - which was on the right hand verge.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 14:09 
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Why do you think you "missed" the signs. You see things unconsciously and register them via the "lizard brain" phenomenon. You may not remember seeing them but you have taken them into account.

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 09, 2008 16:37 
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And there's the problem with signs that are put up and forgotten about. Never cleaned, never maintained so that eventually they can hardly be seen.

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 Post subject: Proper sign placement
PostPosted: Tue Mar 11, 2008 09:44 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
I suspect in a few cases, that it's not just a question of WHAT the sign looks like, but where it is put in relation to the road, and the hazard ahead.
There is a bend warning sign near my home, which I had not see before there was an accident there, because I was always looking ahead at the bend as a potential hazard, and so did not see the sign - which was on the right hand verge.
If this 'bend warning' / 'curve' sign is on the inside of the bend, you'd be more likely to notice the bend, but not the sign (which makes the argument that the sign is either misplaced, or useless).

If, instead, this sign were to be placed on the outside of the bend, it would be much more likely to be 'visually considered'. It might even get noticed before the bend, which would prove that sign's purpose is being fulfilled.

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 Post subject: Re: Road Signs
PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 14:49 
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351 wrote:
This exercise was unbelievable as I noticed for the first time a number of critical signs that have always been there.


The same thing happens with speed limits. It sometimes surprises me when someone is not aware of these psychological processes. They are so very easy to check, yet the number of folks who go about without introspection (“thumb in bum, mind in neutral”) is astounding, quite frankly. We all know an obvious way to avoid a ticket is to obey the limit, yet we continue to “forget” we are in the 30 zone.

People mask familiar things out. I believe it is a Darwinian advantage, because if we allowed the full flow of information into our heads, it might resemble an acid trip. This “masking” is an essential psychological phenomenon that allows us to make unconscious judgements about what information to discard, allowing our minds to focus more fully on the things that are left.

It is no good hoping for the best – you must also prepare for the worst, and it is sporadically disastrous to mask out safety information. Yet it happens all the time unless we try to achieve awareness, either through training or by systematically forcing the matter with some contraption or other. I expect there will soon be a quiet “pinging” noise whenever we stray over the limit.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 16:07 
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I expect there will soon be a quiet “pinging” noise whenever we stray over the limit.


It would be more useful if the pinging happened to alert of something dangerous rather than simply easy to measure.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 20:13 
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Can Mr/Ms Crucis please note that s/he has two unread private messages going back to February sitting in their inbox?

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 20:39 
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PeterE wrote:
Can Mr/Ms Crucis please note that s/he has two unread private messages going back to February sitting in their inbox?


oh yeah.. thanks for the reminder.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 20:49 
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Odin wrote:
It would be more useful if the pinging happened to alert of something dangerous rather than simply easy to measure.


Many things that are easy to measure (bald tyres, drunk driving, speeding?) are just as dangerous as things that are hard to measure. It sometimes makes sense to pay to deal with things that are dangerous AND easy to detect, and pay to deal with things that are hard to detect later, once the easy, cheap things are sorted out.

I think that principle might be called "triage" in road system development. Typically of them, the yanks call it "more bang for buck"!


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PostPosted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 03:58 
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There is such a plethora of road signs or road furnishings, that the 'Cry Wolf' issue arises too.

the observational skills are done with through to eyes but controlled by the brain - and that, with the right attitude.
this telegraph article has a few interesting links in.

Hope that helps you a bit ...

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 Post subject: Re: Road Signs
PostPosted: Sun Apr 27, 2008 00:44 
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Valle Crucis wrote:
351 wrote:
This exercise was unbelievable as I noticed for the first time a number of critical signs that have always been there.


The same thing happens with speed limits. It sometimes surprises me when someone is not aware of these psychological processes. They are so very easy to check, yet the number of folks who go about without introspection (“thumb in bum, mind in neutral”) is astounding, quite frankly. We all know an obvious way to avoid a ticket is to obey the limit, yet we continue to “forget” we are in the 30 zone.

People mask familiar things out. I believe it is a Darwinian advantage, because if we allowed the full flow of information into our heads, it might resemble an acid trip. This “masking” is an essential psychological phenomenon that allows us to make unconscious judgements about what information to discard, allowing our minds to focus more fully on the things that are left.

It is no good hoping for the best – you must also prepare for the worst, and it is sporadically disastrous to mask out safety information. Yet it happens all the time unless we try to achieve awareness, either through training or by systematically forcing the matter with some contraption or other. I expect there will soon be a quiet “pinging” noise whenever we stray over the limit.

Quote:

Very Interesting, I have a theory of my own, I have put it to the test in the past with interesting results. I dont have any trouble seeing signs/markings and reading them simply because I understand them, their purpose , like knowing a well written story line by reading the first word or two. I found that if people understand more and are aware of the greater picture or story every sign tells and apreciate its value then the awareness of signs increases. Simple example.....Im sure you know the sign for a height restriction so whats in your mind when you see one? Are you alerted to the possibility of a.Road narrowing at the restriction..b.Damp or water under the restriction...c.footpaths ending and possibly people on the road under the restriction..d.Oncomming large vehicles in the middle of the road..e.If you are following a large veh, will it get through....f.people overhead dropping stuff deliberately or by accident...g.overhead noise making you jump..h.sudden loss of light....and so on and so on. Would you be aware of all of these or would you just see a height restriction with no tale to tell? Most drivers actually drive with their minds everywhere but on their driving, some with no mind at all, most people look at something or read something they dont understand then turn away and ignor it.They also look at signs and can name what they see but cant tell you what it means, what to expect or what precautions to adopt. As far as not seeing a speed limit goes, well thats just ignorance and/or arrogance, I am trying to remember a time when I didnt know what speed I was travelling and in what limit :roll: ..maybe when i took my first few lessons. :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Road Signs
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 17:11 
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Something that is cropping up in safety circles is the concept of sign overload, where there are so many signs that the 'safety critical' ones just end up blending in a sea of signs (many, just state the obvious and have little importance) so now the drive is to reduce the signage used on site and only put up signs that are relevent.

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 Post subject: Re: Road Signs
PostPosted: Tue Apr 29, 2008 08:03 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
Something that is cropping up in safety circles is the concept of sign overload, where there are so many signs that the 'safety critical' ones just end up blending in a sea of signs (many, just state the obvious and have little importance) so now the drive is to reduce the signage used on site and only put up signs that are relevent.


No, the reduction in signage is being managed by having one large sign with all the others on that single large sign.. When that catches-on with local crapcils we will be in deep (solid human excreta). All the signs at a roundabout will be replaced with one large one with the 10/20/30 other signs painted onto that. It will be about 20 metres square !

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 Post subject: Re: Road Signs
PostPosted: Wed Apr 30, 2008 13:58 
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jomukuk, yes the large sign on the site gate is more a pr measure than anything else often, it's on site that we are trying to make the main changes.

It's not perfect but it's something that was widely identified a few years ago, so at the moment we are trying to change a culture, not an easy thing but at least we try, some site are better than others, but then that's the construction industry...

though your comment about the large sign with everything being used for road signs, well I wouldn't be surprised.

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 Post subject: Re: Road Signs
PostPosted: Thu May 22, 2008 12:48 
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Herbie J wrote:
Valle Crucis wrote:
351 wrote:
This exercise was unbelievable as I noticed for the first time a number of critical signs that have always been there.


The same thing happens with speed limits. It sometimes surprises me when someone is not aware of these psychological processes. They are so very easy to check, yet the number of folks who go about without introspection (“thumb in bum, mind in neutral”) is astounding, quite frankly. We all know an obvious way to avoid a ticket is to obey the limit, yet we continue to “forget” we are in the 30 zone.

People mask familiar things out. I believe it is a Darwinian advantage, because if we allowed the full flow of information into our heads, it might resemble an acid trip. This “masking” is an essential psychological phenomenon that allows us to make unconscious judgements about what information to discard, allowing our minds to focus more fully on the things that are left.

It is no good hoping for the best – you must also prepare for the worst, and it is sporadically disastrous to mask out safety information. Yet it happens all the time unless we try to achieve awareness, either through training or by systematically forcing the matter with some contraption or other. I expect there will soon be a quiet “pinging” noise whenever we stray over the limit.

Quote:

Very Interesting, I have a theory of my own, I have put it to the test in the past with interesting results. I dont have any trouble seeing signs/markings and reading them simply because I understand them, their purpose , like knowing a well written story line by reading the first word or two. I found that if people understand more and are aware of the greater picture or story every sign tells and apreciate its value then the awareness of signs increases. Simple example.....Im sure you know the sign for a height restriction so whats in your mind when you see one? Are you alerted to the possibility of a.Road narrowing at the restriction..b.Damp or water under the restriction...c.footpaths ending and possibly people on the road under the restriction..d.Oncomming large vehicles in the middle of the road..e.If you are following a large veh, will it get through....f.people overhead dropping stuff deliberately or by accident...g.overhead noise making you jump..h.sudden loss of light....and so on and so on. Would you be aware of all of these or would you just see a height restriction with no tale to tell? Most drivers actually drive with their minds everywhere but on their driving, some with no mind at all, most people look at something or read something they dont understand then turn away and ignor it.They also look at signs and can name what they see but cant tell you what it means, what to expect or what precautions to adopt. As far as not seeing a speed limit goes, well thats just ignorance and/or arrogance, I am trying to remember a time when I didnt know what speed I was travelling and in what limit :roll: ..maybe when i took my first few lessons. :lol:


Hi,
Thanks for all the replies.
Herbie J I thing you mis understand what I am implying.
If you travel the same mundane journey every day (which many of us do) then the surroundings become part of everyday items and hence become 'invisible' and we tend not to acknowledge things. This is probably why there are a lot of accidents in so called black spots. If however on that same route one day something different were to appear then it would undoubtedly be noticed. For example if when you went to work the road in front of your hose were clear of obstruction and when you returned home there were safety cones outside you would recognise that change immediately.
Further to your qoute above regarding the low bridge scenario if this were on an irregular journey, say for a holiday, then this would more than likely be noticed as it is 'new' to your regular sightings and hence would be 'acknowledged' as a warning.
I was trying or am trying to understand why people subconciously block out everyday things.
I kind of relate it to say your living room where if your partner suddenly moved the furniture around while you were at work imediately when you got home you would instantly hone in on a change from the norm.
I hope this makes sense.

regards

Wayne


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri May 30, 2008 21:19 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
There is such a plethora of road signs or road furnishings, that the 'Cry Wolf' issue arises too.


This is the big issue for me, especially with the flashing LED signs we have nowadays.

When these first came in, there were the ones that flashed up if you were over the speed limit upon entering a town. Great, thanks for letting me know. I'll slow down now.

Then we started getting ones that flash up for particularly bad hazards, I remember a deceptively sharp bend in Warwickshire getting one of these and yes it was bloody sharp, then one cropped up warning of a crossroads ahead.

Nowadays the speed limit ones flash up even if you're under the limit which has resulted in me ignoring them, even the ones that are speed activated, and there are flashing sharp bend signs (or are they 50 limit signs? I can't remember since I stopped paying attention to them) on the M606 just after you leave the M62 and that bend isn't a problem at all unless you're getting into triple digit speeds.


And the LED signs were presumably brought out originally because people wern't taking notice of the regular signs that had been put in place where they actually matter, because of the cry wolf syndrome, my favourite example of this being one in Oxfordshire informing me that this bend is unsafe if you're travelling above 30mph. I've done it at 60+ mph on a regular basis and this isn't just because I drive a Scooby, it was fine in all the other vehicles I've used, even the complete sheds like my '94 Passat CL


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 20:00 
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malcolmw wrote:
Why do you think you "missed" the signs. You see things unconsciously and register them via the "lizard brain" phenomenon. You may not remember seeing them but you have taken them into account.


As an example - try driving through some village that has reduced it speed limit (40-30 ) - and see how long before you look for 40 repeaters.Then try driving through another you know is 40 , with a long spacing between signs and find yourself positively looking for a :40: to calm yourself .

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 Post subject: Re: Road Signs
PostPosted: Wed Jun 18, 2008 01:00 
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Quote:


Hi,
Thanks for all the replies.
Herbie J I thing you mis understand what I am implying.
If you travel the same mundane journey every day (which many of us do) then the surroundings become part of everyday items and hence become 'invisible' and we tend not to acknowledge things. This is probably why there are a lot of accidents in so called black spots. If however on that same route one day something different were to appear then it would undoubtedly be noticed. For example if when you went to work the road in front of your hose were clear of obstruction and when you returned home there were safety cones outside you would recognise that change immediately.
Further to your qoute above regarding the low bridge scenario if this were on an irregular journey, say for a holiday, then this would more than likely be noticed as it is 'new' to your regular sightings and hence would be 'acknowledged' as a warning.
I was trying or am trying to understand why people subconciously block out everyday things.
I kind of relate it to say your living room where if your partner suddenly moved the furniture around while you were at work imediately when you got home you would instantly hone in on a change from the norm.
Quote:

I hope this makes sense.

regards

Wayne[/quote]
Hi Wayne,
I did get your message and its very valid, I forgot to answer it before taking the oportunity to make my own observations regarding signs as its a 'Improve road safety' thread, I was thinking more of those who may read and hopefully improve a little from both our obs. Cheers and sorry, I tend to dive in when I see a spare seat lol.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Wed Jul 02, 2008 12:01 
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Lum wrote:
my favourite example of this being one in Oxfordshire informing me that this bend is unsafe if you're travelling above 30mph. I've done it at 60+ mph


this is one of the points i wanted to bring to this discussion. its the same sign whether its a sharp bend or the road isnt perfectly straight which means you will inevitably begin to mistrust the signs. on some bends there is a bend sign yet there is no need to slow down rendering the sign useless at that particular bend and should this misplacement continue to other bends, you will learn to ignore the sign completely. however, a sign is merely a warning and is not a replacement for reading the road ahead.

my other point has already been mentioned. if you are in a familiar area the signs become part of the scenery and are therefore ignored in favour of scanning the road for hazards. once a sign warning of a bend is erected, the bend tends not to be moved around too much so the sign loses it use after you have travelled the road a few times. perhaps they are only effective for people who are unfamiliar with the area?

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