Safe Speed Forums

A town centre "improvement" project in Windermere has resulted in a junction which is dangerous to road users - especially pedestrians.

The problem is that there are no signs telling you that you cannot turn left at the mini roundabout.
The No Entry signs are unreadable from the junction, one is endways on, and the nearside one is high up on the left as you stop at the lines - IF you stop at all... no need if the roundabout is clear!

You can see from the various skid marks that drivers are turning left - and having to brake as they meet oncoming one-way traffic!
Sooner or later they are going to meet a pedestrian who is unaware vehicles might be entering the road they are crossing from the wrong direction!

While I was taking the pictures, three vehicles arrived at the junction with their left indicators on, and halted as they realised the road was not suited to two lanes! I was only there twenty minutes at most!

My biggest concern is that the County Council employ "expert" engineers to design these schemes, as well as employing construction companies who do this sort of work day in day out, so how can they have missed this failing?

Yeah, dont all post at once!!
Why dont we have a penalty points system like your driving license - 12 points and you are out of a job, and have to pay back your wages!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

That is appalling design. There should be a no left turn sign at the roundabout for a start. It would work much better as a normal junction moving the one way further back so that the road continues in the dominant direction and the more minor roads have to join it, staggered style.

That is nearly how it used to be, except the one way from the left is the dominant flow and used to round the corner, being joined from the right.
The one way street from the left can now turn right at the roundabout, instead of having to go around the village for 100 yards, before being able to loop back.

The system was and is down the left hand road, and then up the right - the two roads joining at the new mini roundabout.
ALL traffic was diverted down the "up" lane during the works which took over 4 months, and over ran the schedule by several weeks.
Up traffic was diverted to another side road out of the present scheme, but visitors arriving now the works are finished are driving into the up lane, not deterred by a single No Entry sign in between the down and up lanes!!!


Of course drivers are reluctant to go around the roundabout if there isn't a policeman STOOD on it!

The map of the "improvements" are here: http://www.sldt.co.uk/resources/CS023678_01_SLDT%20Website%20at%2023-11-07.pdf

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I agree with the bad design aspect, I was up there this week and you have to be well ahead of the game in places like this. Often a lot of traffic control and systems are designed with local knowledge in mind, probably the worst way to design anything in my view, then again they do employ 'experts' dont they????? or is it just a labotomised babboon as I often suspect?

A single No Entry sign isn't enforceable, right?

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Andrew.

[quote

] A 'No Entry' sign is a no entry sign, there could be any number of reasons for only one being posted or being visible, there are circumstances where only one sign is used , so I wouldnt rely on anything other than a 'No Entry' sign means NO ENTRY. What is it supposed to mean if there is only one posted or visible? Half entry perhaps

Ok, I had a look. From what I can tell no entry signs are required on both sides of the carriageway unless:

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Andrew.

True, but try to win the argument in court should one be ignored might not get you off One might just have fell off, or been nicked, you know what those windermere lot are like

A sign having fallen off or been stolen invalidates a restriction the same as it not being put there correctly in the first place.

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Andrew.

If the road is less than five metres wide only one sign is required.

True but in a situation where two signs are required would it also be invalid if one fell or was stolen?

I believe if it was proved you saw one sign and ignored it on the basis the other was missing and drove the wrong way up a one way you would still get nicked. It would be interesting to see it tested.

When the SINGLE No Entry sign is placed between two nearly parallel roads, each one way, and the only clue as to which road is no entry is the crook in the post, then the single sign becomes a hazard.
Add to that the no entry road was actually used as access while the other road was being "improved", and for 4 months drivers were actually directed down there, then it is a disaster waiting to happen. Numerous vehicles are attempting to drive the wrong way, simply because the signage is so vague.

A highways officer, and the police road safety manager are going to have a look this week. I'll keep you posted!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I completely agree, in the situation in the first photo I would have put up a no right turn sign and marked no entry across the mouth of the road on the left. I was merely responding to the question about the single no entry sign I quoted.

I understood - I was underlining the difference between legal requirements and common sense!

An example of which...
While these works were taking place, the contractors were obliged to place signs warning of queuing traffic. However they were only going to place them the statutory distance ahead of the workings.
This was pointless, as the road is o busy, that queues quickly extended back further than the signs, into a section with unsighted bends and hollows!

When asked to place the signs further back, the contractors were extremely reluctant!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Although I agree with the legal points and some comments it detracts from what I see in these photos and first hand knowledge having driven there. It is only a problem for poor drivers not observant ones.You have more than just the signs telling you where you should be. I think the road markings are very clear and common sense should prevail. Putting all the blame on badly posted signs or quoting the sign posting legislation and demanding improvements will not solve this problem, it may reduce probs but not solve, otherwise 4x4 drivers wouldnt blatantly go over the top of a mini roundabout for no ligitimate reason as is clearly shown now would they? If that driver cannot see that and negotiate it correctly there is little chance of the same driver in a similar but strange place ever noticing a no entry sign. As it seems with most issues relating to the roads it really needs more than one aproach.

Does driving over a mini roundabout actually cause anyone any danger? Sure it's a 3 point offence, but really, who cares? if people often drive over a mini roundabout then it's the junction which is at fault.

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Andrew.

Well in most cases, if you were about to enter the roandabout thinking you had plenty of time, and a vehicle to your 9.o'clock position took a short cut across the top, rather than drive around it, then it could be at best an inconvenience.
The problem is WHEN do they drive over it, so the three point option is a good one. If it was enforced by camera 24/7, then it would be a bad idea!

The real problem in Windermere is the traffic from Elleray Road trying to turn into Victoria Road because they cannot see the No Entry signs.
Google map here

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Mini rounabouts are notorious black spots in some areas, failing to negotiate roundabouts correctly is habbit forming and hazardous, it simply takes an oversight or minor error of judgement to create real problems. mini roundabouts are used to slow traffic at junctions as well as improve flow yet by the nature of their design they actually speed it up very often defeating the object. If a biker for example was going straight on at one and the veh comming towards them was turning right an inexperienced biker may feel plenty of time available to enter and carry on expecting the car turning right to follow the correct path slowly as is the purpose of mini roundabouts, but because joe blogs in the car may have entered the MR a split second before the bike or not even noticed the bike as is often the case then cuts across the middle as is often the case this is one situation that can lead to a crunch. Most road users actually fail to negotiate most roundabouts correctly and /or safely let alone mini roundabouts which are often nothing more than a painting on the road with a warning on aproach, also a common scenario at MRs is where the expectation of motorists at the MR prior to entry looking to their right may be that the veh aproaching will slow down yet fail to realise that driver looking right has a much clearer view and pays little attention to all traffic on/near or around it in their haste and maintains a high speed .If you drive over middle of mini roundabouts without ligitimate reason (such as large vehs turning circle ,bus/truck)you are driving below the required standard, if you did it on your test you would fail, if you already passed your test why drive like a failure? Also, if for some reason you had to stop in a emergency whilst crossing the painted central area even in the dry it can be slippy, lethal in the wet. If a loose child wanders onto MR in that moment what ya gonna do? Go to jail probably. I have seen many a errr 'driver' do this but I have yet to see any real advantage when they do.

Wow, that's a lot of what-ifs. Maybe they design mini-roundabouts where you are. Around here some of them are just stupid and most you can hit the middle with no problems.

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Andrew.

You seem to be missing the point of a mini roundabout and as far as hitting the middle goes as if its a challenge I disagree, clipping the outer edge is common with those who negotiate some minis correctly due to limited space but its the reasoning behind the actions of those who do it without a second thought and drive over the middle that I am concerned with. Im sorry to say but its little more than "I did it this way on my test but I know a better way and so I choose to drive my own way and not the way I should" At the very least you can get a £20 fine for it and at worst you could get much more. You may well be used to minis in your local area but I can assure you that in other areas the examples I have given you are very common, as are the incidents involving cyclists who have found themselves almost wiped out by poor drivers at mini roundabouts. A 'what- if' as you call it is awareness to the experienced and/or highly trained, people who dismiss the possible the probable and the very real as 'what if' are far from experienced. Give me one really good reason for driving over the middle of a mini roundabout that gives you a significant advantage and doesnt cause others to be alarmed/concerned or even take some kind of avoiding action in some way however minor.People who tend to drive over the middle tend to be going too fast and have a hastey mentality, a driver about to enter on your left as you approach technically only has to give way to traffic comming from their right 'already' on the roundabout (after all its a give way you are aproaching)a hasty pace may well prevent you from giving way correctly if it has already entered and may even prevent you from stopping. At all roundabouts you should check in all directions you can for hazards/obstructions not just look to the right, could you stop in that situation when you are seemingly in a hurry to get over minis? (cutting over the middle is the action of those who wish to get over the roundabout in a hurry after all) i could list hundreds of your 'what-ifs' IF I had the time but I dont and Im off to bed.