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PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2005 22:02 
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The problem is if you are in slow moving trafic you keep getting the brake lights blinking at you continuously as the other driver keeps tapping the brake pedal.


As we use our rear brake as a H/brake it would be distracting for vehicles in que's

If drivers are not looking in the right direction, it really makes any differance if the bike is lit up like Blackpool, they are still going to run up the rear end.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 30, 2005 16:05 
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i've always been annoyed with people being too close on the Mway and hence the brake lights keep popping on & off as they make minute uneccesary adjustments to their speed.

in fact i often think it dangerous as it desensitises me to the brake light signal, i might back off the throttle in response to it and then wait and see how hard they're braking.

i like the idea of a brake light triggered by the brake pedal but proportionate to vehicle deccel (in addition to regular brake lights probably). i.e. the led strip in the spoiler lights up progressively from the centre.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 08:17 
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I feel the same, when i see people on motorways on and off their brakes i take my foor off the throttle and let the engine slow me down. Often end never even touching the brake! Mind you i usually driving a disel so loads of engine braking.

BMW now have brake lights that light up accoding to how hard you are braking, they use LEDs. THink it goes, normal brake lights, then an extra ring around them then the high level light comes on.


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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 08:39 
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Last edited by FJSRiDER on Wed Oct 04, 2006 12:13, edited 1 time in total.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 31, 2005 09:13 
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Paddy27 wrote:
BMW now have brake lights that light up accoding to how hard you are braking, they use LEDs. THink it goes, normal brake lights, then an extra ring around them then the high level light comes on.


really? well thats good.. shame about the car :D
i wonder if they a proportionate to brake pressure or deccel.

maybe they should flash when the abs kicks in (marginally better than the hazards that some systems put on :roll: )


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 01, 2005 07:25 
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Hey you, I like BMW's!!! :x

I would imagine it is Brake pressure they use. But don't quote me ont that.

One thing though, all these progressive brake lights and flashing brake lights are only any good if other people know what they mean!!!!!!

How many people are actually aware of this equipment?????? :?


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 01:55 
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ed_m: Hey, watch those BMW cracks :lol:

Paddy27: People do not need to know what they mean. If you are driving along behind such a car and see the brake lights coming on and off normally and then they suddenly get MUCH brighter, or bigger, or start flashing it's going to get your attention quicker. That's the point.

Even if the first time the car in front touched the brakes was actually a panic stop your attention would still be gained quicker by the unusual brake lights.

Every millisecond counts in an emergency.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 02:14 
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Pressure sensitive brake lights require very careful design.

One of the ways that brake lights work is that they attract your attention when they flick on. If we had a pressure sensitive system so that the brightness of the brake lights gradually increased with gradually increasing pedal pressure then the attention grabbing 'flick on' effect would be lost, at least sometimes.

I don't suppose anyone would be stupid enough to design a system that did exactly that, but some proposals have characteristics of it. I'm a bit worried about the idea of lighting up the third brake light progressively in response to pedal pressure - suppose that's the only brake light we can see through a couple of other vehicles. If the front guy brakes progressively, there's a much reduced 'flick on' warning.

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 15:56 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Pressure sensitive brake lights require very careful design.


thats why i think it needs to be proportionate to deccel, and probably enabled by the brake light switch (and yes, alongside regular brake lights).
assuming deccel is what you need warning of, there are too many variables between brake pressure and deccel for it to be a reliable measure of how urgently it requires your attention.

(BMW aside: I did alot of my driver training in an M5, which was admittedly fun, the only problem being that the wheelbase was slightly longer than the track was wide on the tight corners. but the interior? i-drive..?.. oh and bmw drivers :wink: )


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PostPosted: Sat Apr 02, 2005 18:21 
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must admit , hadn't seen many led lights on bikes , (don't see many mbikes in town anyway) till the other day - looked like a new bike with a double row of very large leds above the no plate. I suspect he had his lights on as they were lit permanantly and came on stronger as he braked. Really stood out , but spoiled the effect /differential with the difference of strength. felt that 4 rows, 2 for rear lights and 2 for brakes or a flashing light for brakes would have been more effective.
Definately a step in right direction to make the biker stand out.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 03, 2005 08:28 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Pressure sensitive brake lights require very careful design.

One of the ways that brake lights work is that they attract your attention when they flick on. If we had a pressure sensitive system so that the brightness of the brake lights gradually increased with gradually increasing pedal pressure then the attention grabbing 'flick on' effect would be lost, at least sometimes.

I don't suppose anyone would be stupid enough to design a system that did exactly that, but some proposals have characteristics of it. I'm a bit worried about the idea of lighting up the third brake light progressively in response to pedal pressure - suppose that's the only brake light we can see through a couple of other vehicles. If the front guy brakes progressively, there's a much reduced 'flick on' warning.

I agree about gradual brightness changes - they would be dangerous unless the change was obvious - and that might be difficult given the wide spectrum of peoples awarness!
On my bicycle, I have a flashing LED rear light, and used to use the fastest rate to give the illusion of always on (to meet UK regs.).
However I found the most effective setting was the longer frequency.
If I was promoting varying lights under braking conditions, I would plump for a bright ring of light, with a centre light which pulsed quicker as more braking effort was exerted. It would certainly distinguish it from the numpties who drive with their foglights on!

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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 02:46 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
On my bicycle, I have a flashing LED rear light, and used to use the fastest rate to give the illusion of always on (to meet UK regs.).


You annoying sod :) I hate LED lights that do that.

Different people have different levels of retention of vision, and the flickering from current Mercedes LED brake lights (caused by them using cheapo strobes to illuminate one LED at a time) is distracting enough as it is without people using lights actually designed to flash.

Give me filament bulbs any day, much less painful on the eyes.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 17:09 
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However, there is a downside to something like this. When "reactive brake lights" become the norm, I suspect that "non-reactive" brake lights would be interpreted as gentle braking no matter how hard the braking actually was.


Except that either the gentle braking level will be dangerously dim compared to non-reactive lights, or the hard braking level so bright as to be dangerous.

I recall once making progress with another vehicle, german registered and obviously used to high speed autobahn travel. Even though there was a safe gap, this chap courteously flashed his brake lights several times before actually applying the brakes whenever approaching potential hazards, giving a very useful warning to following traffic. It is possible to miss the application of brakes if your attention is momentarily elsewhere, which can eat into reaction times. A rapid pulse of the lights as applied makes this much less likely to happen - without unnecessary modulation of the light intensity.


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PostPosted: Fri Apr 29, 2005 19:36 
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I agree with the German chap you mention, I often flash my lights if I'm planning to brake in a place where people might not expect it.

The usual place for this is on an urban dual carriageway that has those tiny gaps for turning right into very minor roads as opposed to a useful deceleration/waiting area. Edge Lane in Liverpool is a good example when making a U-turn for the Total garage or a right turn at the same point.

Combined with a right signal, about half of the time, drivers realise what I'm up to and change to the left hand lane, the rest of the time they still nearly plough into my rear end and give abuse because I am turning right there and not at the crossroads further up and now they can't get past in the other lane.


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 Post subject: Brake Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 05:29 
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I've got a Citroen Xsara that when you stand on the brakes (emergency stop) it activates the hazard lights (Manufacturers standard fit).

Any Views ??

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 07:10 
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Lum wrote:
Ernest Marsh wrote:
On my bicycle, I have a flashing LED rear light, and used to use the fastest rate to give the illusion of always on (to meet UK regs.).


You annoying sod :) I hate LED lights that do that.

Different people have different levels of retention of vision, and the flickering from current Mercedes LED brake lights (caused by them using cheapo strobes to illuminate one LED at a time) is distracting enough as it is without people using lights actually designed to flash.

Give me filament bulbs any day, much less painful on the eyes.

I did go on to say:
Quote:
However I found the most effective setting was the longer frequency

The fast setting is becauser the law still says "ALWAYS ON" but is less noticeable. When cycling you do whatever it takes to get non-observant drivers to see you - your life depends on it.

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 Post subject: Re: Brake Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 07:13 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
I've got a Citroen Xsara that when you stand on the brakes (emergency stop) it activates the hazard lights (Manufacturers standard fit).

Any Views ??

Sounds good to me - I cannot think of a situation where it could be dangerous, even though it might sometimes be unnecessary.
Not all cars have a hazards switch which is easily reached in an emergency - encountering an accident on the motorway for instance.

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 Post subject: Re: Brake Lights
PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 07:22 
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Safety Engineer wrote:
I've got a Citroen Xsara that when you stand on the brakes (emergency stop) it activates the hazard lights (Manufacturers standard fit).

Any Views ??


Hmm, so when you come around a shallow motorway bend at 120, see a cop and anchor up, the car will draw attention to you?

Seriously, however, I have a massive aversion to this sort of automation in a general sense. I'd like to judge for myself when to give a signal to other road users.

On the other hand I can't really see any harm in this one, and could well imagine that it would be possible to wish for an extra hand for the hazard light switch when it's all gone wrong and you're seriously busy trying to put it right.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:23 
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As far as I know its illegal to have you hazard lights on if you are not stationary!

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2005 10:59 
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Gizmo wrote:
As far as I know its illegal to have you hazard lights on if you are not stationary!


Things have changed... See:

http://www.highwaycode.gov.uk/08.htm#96

However, it remains illegal to use hazard warning lights when moving except on a motorway or dual cariageway. Somehow, I don't think that's going to stop me using mine when I spot an obstruction ahead on a single carriageway road (and I suspect traffic behind does not know about the problem).

Edited (by Claire 26.4.11) :
Link now at : here
Highway Code wrote:
116

Hazard warning lights. These may be used when your vehicle is stationary, to warn that it is temporarily obstructing traffic. Never use them as an excuse for dangerous or illegal parking. You MUST NOT use hazard warning lights while driving or being towed unless you are on a motorway or unrestricted dual carriageway and you need to warn drivers behind you of a hazard or obstruction ahead. Only use them for long enough to ensure that your warning has been observed.

[Law RVLR reg 27]

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