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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 07:53 
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Nissan car monitors GPS for road dangers ahead
by Martyn Williams
Be the first to comment | I like it!

Most drivers have done it: misjudged a bend in the road and only realized they are travelling too fast when they start wrestling the wheel to stay safely in their lane. A new safety system developed by Nissan could put an end to such situations by warning drivers if they are approaching a curve too fast.

The system, which goes by the somewhat clunky "navigation-cooperative intelligent pedal" name, monitors the car's location via the navigation system and keeps an eye out for upcoming curves and bends in the road. It judges the maximum safe speed from the tightness of the curve and then keeps a watch on the car's speed.

If the car is approaching the curve too fast, it first triggers a warning announcement from the navigation system that there's a curve ahead.

Should the driver not decelerate, an actuator connected to the accelerator will push the pedal up to reduce the flow of fuel to the engine and then gently apply the brakes to reduce speed. When the car gets to the safe speed for the curve the system disengages.

In a demonstration of the system at Nissan's test track outside of Tokyo, it worked without fail each time a sharp bend was approached too fast.

For a driver who has misjudged the tightness of the curve, as opposed to one who is not concentrating, the audible warning could be an easy one to ignore, but it was quite difficult to ignore the accelerator being pushed up. It's of course possible to push back, but when the car starts fighting your speed it would be a brave driver who ignores such a warning.

"By using this system, drivers can feel more peace of mind and drive more easily," said Kazuhiro Doi, general manager in Nissan's technology development division.

The system will begin appearing in production cars later this year when it debuts in Nissan's Fuga car in Japan.

The same car will also introduce a second safety system designed to help cars get more safely around curves. Called "active stability assist," the system works to synchronize braking, steering and engine response so that the driver feels more in control when heading through tight curves, such as those on winding mountain roads.

When enabled, the system should result in a smoother and more controlled ride through sharp turns.

Both safety systems are part of Nissan's safety shield concept, which seeks to prevent the car from entering a situation where a collision is unavoidable.

"Our goal is to create a collision-free vehicle," said Doi. "Historically all automakers have tried to create safer vehicles, especially with airbags or a safety body, and such a system works when you crash. Recently we could realize a lot of electronics-based systems, and by using them detect the risk and work the brakes or steering before you get into a risky situation."

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 08:38 
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The one main problem with this is....

Drivers will start to feel confident approaching bends at quite high speeds, knowing that the car will warn them if they are about to "overcook it", then one day that bend is slippery for some reason that the sat nav doesn't know about, rain, ice, diesel and.......

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 09:49 
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It would be better if this system could be used to generate automatic pace notes. It would lead to much greater driver involvement and concentration levels. Also mapping systems aren't completely accurate nor is gps so i would think there is a much bigger risk from relying on this and having it fail than not having it in the first place. I'd also like to know how it works out the safe speed for a bend when it will vary depending on what line the driver takes anyway...


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 13:10 
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teabelly wrote:
It would be better if this system could be used to generate automatic pace notes.


Two right over crest, tightens into three right opens, don't cut, pace notes would be annoying as hell. This system, the same as most systems comes down to what was said on TopGear last week

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50% of plane crashes are pilot error, planes can be flown by themselves so then if planes flew themselves then accidents would fall by 50% BUT would you get into a plane without a pilot?


The fear that it will fail on a turn will always be there so you can't rely on it so it could work but I'd rather not have it. I like to now when the car slows down that it is me doing it rather than a computer


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 15:43 
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teabelly wrote:
It would be better if this system could be used to generate automatic pace notes.


I have one of those, Wife 1.0 starts to generate pace notes when the pace exceeds passenger comfort level ;)

Systems like Nissan's are inevitable as the technology to achieve them becomes available at the consumer level, it is just an evolution of abs, traction control, brake assist, gps, stability programs, collision avoidance radar, etc. I wonder if at some point there will be codes on the license that allow you to drive a vehicle without them similarly to the current automatic, manual and trailer provisions. A system like this could be just what inexperienced and a to b appliance drivers need, speed limits would become redundant and drivers with full licenses would be free to drive without such systems. OK, so that is a rose tinted view, you never know though perhaps technology can provide a better solution than simply restricting and punishing everyone.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 17:45 
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Of course this is the next step up from the Speed restriction computer that doesn't let you exceed the speed limit, it will also set each corner speed to the old granny safety level, so that when you are "belting" along at 50 MPH on your rural straight with no one about for miles, you suddenly find yourself slowing to 20MPH to take that corner that you always used to take safely at 50MPH......NICE!!!

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 18:03 
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I could forsee the auto pace notes decideing to let the Audi TT that drives the road each day take the bend at 55mph and then letting the transit van career off the cliff :lol:

PS wife 1.0 cant see the speedo and her imaginary foot brake don't work. LOL

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“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 18:17 
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I could forsee the auto pace notes decideing to let the Audi TT that drives the road each day take the bend at 55mph and then letting the transit van career off the cliff :lol:


Hey, don't knock the tranny van, I used to drive one and although they aren't the best acceleration about, they certain handle well and can out corner a few other things....;-)

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 19:57 
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graball wrote:
Hey, don't knock the tranny van, I used to drive one and although they aren't the best acceleration about, they certain handle well and can out corner a few other things....;-)


A crew bus is really handy - you can get the passengers to switch from side to side to try and keep the rear wheel on the ground.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 24, 2009 22:53 
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That's really weird! (and slightly terrifying)!

I think there's one huge, crucial difference between this and systems like ABS, Electronic Stability Control, Brake Assist, Traction Conrol etc in that this system seems to be the only one that pre-empts the event. All the others experience the event and react to it in some way.

Someone has already rasied the question about what happens when it's icy, but that's just the tip of the ice berg! (sorry 'bout the awful pun)!

Does it have a different setting when it rains?

What about the myriad of other "conditions" that a sensible and experienced driver would take into account? Can it spot a diesel spill?, a horse half way round a bend? What happens when that bend gets re-surfaced? Do you have to pay for a subscription to download new data each year? Can it tell how worn your tyres are, or whether you've fitted different ones to those fitted as OE? Can it tell how able the driver is, how tired, distracted...

My guess is that it can't, and won't ever - which means that they'll have chosen very "safe" default settings that make you take the corner very slowly... :(

Then there's the interesting legal side. Presumably they'll have been ultra-cautious to avoid getting their butts sued-off when someone plants their car whilst relying on this system.

And what about the authorities? What happens if their system happens to think the safe speed for a given bend is above the speed limit? (well, it's JUST possible there might be the odd bend in the country for which that's true :roll: )! Let's face it, with this system, you've got everything you need for ISA built in - in fact there's probably a menu where you can toggle it on or off already)!

And all this is completely aside from the generally held Safespeed belief that this sort of driver aid is counter-productive because it just encourages a further dumbing-down and discourages assessing a situation for one's self.

Then there's the "mandatory by inurance" backdoor technique where although it will be possible to bypass it (like ISA), it's not hard to imagine what the insurers will do in the event of a crash that occurred whilst it was disabled.

Finally, in the boating world, the general received wisdom is that GPS is a great idea and very useful but nobody in their right minds goes to sea dependent only on that! It's really only supposed to bee used as an adjunct to paper charts and traditional pilotage or navigation techniques. Let's not forget that this is a system whose accuracy and availablility is entirely dependent on the whims of the American military!

I'm not a big "Daily Wail" fan but this is by far the most scary and depressing story I've heard in a long time - and it's not even April!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 00:09 
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The cornering speed will also be affected by number of people in the car, tyre condition, tyre pressure, condition of the road etc.... first accident and there will be huge injury claims. You can't replace a competent driver with a machine. You can't even replace a fallible and slightly ropey driver and get better results!

For pace notes I wasn't really thinking full on but having something that warned about tightening corners, blind crests and a few other things would be useful. Having it yapping all the time would be distracting until you got used to it. I don't think rally drivers find it distracting. But if you were quite a fast driver you might find that it couldn't keep up!


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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 07:06 
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Let's not forget that this is a system whose accuracy and availablility is entirely dependent on the whims of the American military!


And a system which is nearing the end of its life :(

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 17:34 
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Mole wrote:
That's really weird! (and slightly terrifying)!

I think there's one huge, crucial difference between this and systems like ABS, Electronic Stability Control, Brake Assist, Traction Conrol etc in that this system seems to be the only one that pre-empts the event. All the others experience the event and react to it in some way.

Someone has already rasied the question about what happens when it's icy, but that's just the tip of the ice berg! (sorry 'bout the awful pun)!

Does it have a different setting when it rains?

What about the myriad of other "conditions" that a sensible and experienced driver would take into account? Can it spot a diesel spill?, a horse half way round a bend? What happens when that bend gets re-surfaced? Do you have to pay for a subscription to download new data each year? Can it tell how worn your tyres are, or whether you've fitted different ones to those fitted as OE? Can it tell how able the driver is, how tired, distracted...

My guess is that it can't, and won't ever - which means that they'll have chosen very "safe" default settings that make you take the corner very slowly... :(


Traction and stability controls pre-empt loss of control, a bit of wheel spin or drift does not necessarily mean the driver is having a problem or cannot deal with it, the systems will often interfere early though.

Cars already have external thermometers and rain sensors for automatic wipers, a scanner that can analyse the road surface is perfectly possible the only difficulty being making it cheap and reliable enough. Other existing sensors, accelerometers, wheel rotation, steering input, suspension movement, etc. combined with gps inputs could be used to continuously monitor slip angles and grip levels to allow for road conditions and tyre quality. Data sent from vehicles ahead could provide alerts for adverse conditions such as black ice or diesel. Systems for monitoring the status of the driver are already being developed, smoothness of control inputs would provide some information about a drivers abilities. Modern cars already have the kind of systems that were once the preserve of military jets, heads up displays with instruments and IR enhanced views of the road ahead for instance. Technology will just continue to advance and become cheaper and more pervasive (or invasive) and active safety systems are just going to follow suit, it may take a while to become common in cheaper cars, but look at how few cars are without abs now.

Mole wrote:
And all this is completely aside from the generally held Safespeed belief that this sort of driver aid is counter-productive because it just encourages a further dumbing-down and discourages assessing a situation for one's self.


While I agree with this the reality is that there appears to be no political will to remove incompetent drivers from the road or require them to bring their skills up to a reasonable level. This is understandable as few people would vote for policies which would prevent them from driving or force them to spend money and effort on further training to continue to do so. So if a driver wants to be lazy and let the car drive for them they can accept life in a noddy car getting from a to b quite happily, some people may go for this, however I would imagine a lot of young drivers would work hard to get their 'training wheels' removed. If these systems can be shown to be beneficial then restricting new drivers to using only vehicles with them could actually be a positive driver (pun intended) for accepting further training/testing and producing more competent motorists than we have now.

As for insurance, well to be brutal, we would soon find out if trained competent drivers were safer than computer controlled cars, the premiums would tell us.

Not that I want any of this gear on my car of course, abs is fine for a road car and even stability control if you can turn it off or set how sideways you get before it does interfere. I accept though that many people are not really interested in driving other than a way to get about so these kinds of systems are something they want.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 25, 2009 18:51 
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graball wrote:
Of course this is the next step up from the Speed restriction computer that doesn't let you exceed the speed limit, it will also set each corner speed to the old granny safety level, so that when you are "belting" along at 50 MPH on your rural straight with no one about for miles, you suddenly find yourself slowing to 20MPH to take that corner that you always used to take safely at 50MPH......NICE!!!


I'm getting seriously fed up with smartarses getting 'clever' with technology. It'll be our downfall yet.

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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 Post subject: Nerfing the world?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 02:39 
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TripleS wrote:
graball wrote:
Of course this is the next step up from the Speed restriction computer that doesn't let you exceed the speed limit, it will also set each corner speed to the old granny safety level, so that when you are "belting" along at 50 MPH on your rural straight with no one about for miles, you suddenly find yourself slowing to 20MPH to take that corner that you always used to take safely at 50MPH......NICE!!!
I'm getting seriously fed up with smartarses getting 'clever' with technology. It'll be our downfall yet.

Best wishes all,
Dave.
If everything around us is chock full of clever technology, capable of figuring out everything for us, what's left for us to do?
What kind of people are we 'creating', or at least encouraging, when there are no mistakes of any real consequence?

[rare form of sarcasm]
How many years of my life did I waste learning how to drive?
[/rare form of sarcasm]

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 08:32 
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If everything around us is chock full of clever technology, capable of figuring out everything for us, what's left for us to do?


Enjoy the fruits of that technology and improve it. We wouldn't be having this conversation if the black box under my desk wasn't full of clever technology :)

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 10:35 
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Quote:
e.

If everything around us is chock full of clever technology, capable of figuring out everything for us, what's left for us to do?
What kind of people are we 'creating', or at least encouraging, when there are no mistakes of any real consequence?


Just look at calculators...how many people under thirty can work out 10% or 15% of something (quite easy really) without a calculator?

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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I totally approve of ABS because it can brake and [unbrake] individual wheels, and it tries to preserve my ability to steer. As long as the calibration is good, I like it. Provided the calibration knows how to cooperate with the driver, and isn't too conservative (you listening, Toyoduh?), ABS and its children help the driver engage in the task of driving. It needs me to make the most of it.

I applaud Nissan's SynchroRev Matching because, although it takes one job away from the driver, its purpose is to help the driver to corner more delicately and accurately, while preserving transmission wear. It helps me shift better, it helps me drive better.

Nissan's "Conservative Curve Minder", on the other hand, tries to put someone else in my seat.

It's one thing if a heads-up display suggests how fast I can safely take this corner, or lets me know I might be taking this a little faster than advised. Many curves in Amerika have advisory speed signs posted just before you enter the curve.

It's quite another when someone who isn't even there is overriding my driving decisions. If it's decisions are conservative enough, then maybe I should just move over and let Nissan drive the damn thing? It can be my personalized mass transit module, instead of my car.

I guess it comes down to whether or not an offswitch is available, and what it's thresholds are. I would tend to leave electronannies on in inclement weather, but in the dry, it's off.

I'm scared for what technology doesn't want us to bother doing. Too many of our decisions are being made for us by people who want us to pay for the 'privilege' of Nerfing the world.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 10:39 
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And before they know it the drivers never bother to even brake before any bend or 'curve' as the car does it for them. Whn they get into a hire car without it they fail to even hit the brake pedal assuming the car will do it for them.
Dragon's Den had a brake for a (Childs) bike and they pointed out to the 'inventor's' - that the child will then learn to rely on the adult to always brake for them ! They threw it out as a bad idea.

This is a bad idea.
Anything that makes the driver, not be responsible and take proper control of their vehicle is a 'bad idea'.
IF driver's want the option of their Sat Nav to provide a warning that their speed is too fast for the bend, then fair enough but anything more is potentially highly dangerous.

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 30, 2009 11:02 
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I quite like the idea that if you chose to drive a car with this that your license is endorsed and places you with a 'Driver Inability to Judge Properly' Badge. :)
I don't like ABS and hate that my car has it. Far rather not have any aids and that apart from power steering is the only 'aid' in this world of car aids fitted as standard that I have. I am happy with no aids. I like driving my car not being a passenger to some programmers concept of 'safe'.
I want to make every decision. I want to 'feel' when the car tyre's are gripping less, I want to know if the back or front is at the edge of grip. I want total control.
Modern cars are often now FWD (front wheel drive) and I choose not to buy them. When I drive a hire car, I make a serious note to self throughout the journey that I am in a FWD car. Mind at every steering input I know it too ! Along the straights it 'yakkers' the steering wheel which reminds one too!
A system for young drivers with this would be kissing their driving skills goodbye. If they don't start learning young when will they learn ?
I don't mind options to tell you but to take over, no, never - or not that I can possibly think of at this time !
This must be resisted.
The insurance results may take several years and deaths to truly come to light.
Just because it is 'possible' does not mean that it is 'good'.

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