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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 12:46 
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I could have added this to the other thread . as it's related. But somehow I think worth discussion on it's own and I think overall "sound"

http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/news/edito ... -21945906/
article wrote:
Driving: How to stay safe in the ice and snow this winter
Jan 6 2010 By Graeme Lennox

SCOTLAND returned to work yesterday amid scenes straight out of a disaster movie.

Heavy snowfalls and icy conditions plunged the country into chaos, making even the simplest commute a perilous journey.

On Monday, the AA recorded their busiest day in their 105-year history, with more than 25,000 call-outs.

And by lunchtime yesterday, they had come to the rescue of another 9000 stranded motorists.

But every driver can do their bit to avoid breakdowns and accidents by getting ready for the worst, carrying emergency rations and driving more carefully.

Aa spokesman Gavin Hill-Smith praised hardy Scots for their resilience but warned that people were still not taking sufficient precautions.

He said: "Scotland has taken a battering but Scots motorists seem to fare better than those down south.

"They have more experience of driving in adverse conditions and could teach the rest of us a thing or two. If we had the same weather down south, we would have seen major problems by now."

The most common cause of accidents is people not leaving enough distance between them and the car in front - but there are other significant problems.

People who fail to clear snow from their roofs, doors and mirrors face more than just visibility problems.

Gavin warned: "Last year, we had two multiple pile-ups caused by large blocks of snow or ice falling off a car and temporarily blinding the driver behind."

Even experienced drivers get caught out in the adverse conditions.

Black ice is a hidden killer, causing hundreds of accidents every year.

Driving safely in ice or snow is about reading the road ahead and anticipating danger.

Smoother driving will help anchor your wheels to the slippy surface.

Experts recommend setting off in second gear and keeping the revs low so the wheels don't spin.

Gavin added: "Make sure your tyres are properly inflated. The legal minimum tread depth is 1.6mm but we normally recommend 3mm of tread in winter to help disperse all the muck your wheels pick up."

One great trick is carrying a piece of carpet or rug in your boot in case you get stuck.

Gavin said: "Place it under your front wheels and you will be able to use the extra traction to get yourself out. But don't forget to keep going until you are completely clear of the trouble."

Flat batteries are the biggest cause of AA call-outs.

Gavin said: "People get in their cars and switch on the heater, the radio, the sat-nav and light, which places a massive strain on the battery.

"People doing short journeys don't give the battery time to recover. A lot of families use just one car over Christmas and leave the other on the drive for up to two weeks.

"If you do have to venture out, give yourself extra time in the morning. Start the engine and get it up to normal operating temperature before setting off - but always stay with the vehicle.

"And pack your car with plenty of warm clothing because even daytime temperatures are enough to scare off a polar bear."

Police have advised drivers to take extra care on the roads, following reports of reckless driving, and to be prepared.

Chief Inspector Jim McLaughlin, of Strathclyde Road Policing Unit, added: "Preparation is vital in adverse weather conditions and we would advise motorists to drive slowly and take extra care.

"Before setting off, check your vehicle is well-maintained and safe to drive in icy conditions.

"If you do have to go out, allow more time, perhaps take a shovel and additional warm clothing, a warm drink and some food."

FREEZY DOES IT

Reduce your risk of skidding by reducing your speed. Too much power is often the source of problems in snow and ice.

Wear comfortable, dry shoes. Cumbersome, snow-covered boots will slip on the pedals.

Select second gear when pulling away, easing your foot off the clutch gently to avoid wheel-spin.

Try to maintain a constant speed, choosing the most suitable gear in advance to avoid having to change down while climbing a hill.

TAKE A BRAKE

When driving downhill, choose third or fourth gear to prevent skidding. Always apply brakes gently.

If you do get stuck, straighten the steering and clear the snow from the wheels. Put a sack or old rug in front of the wheels to give some grip.

Once on the move, try not to stop until you reach firmer ground.

IN THE CLEAR

Get up at least 10 minutes early to give you time to prepare the car.

Completely clear all windows of snow and ice using de-icer and a scraper. Do not set off with just a tiny hole cleared in the windscreen.

HOT HINTS

Use a cigarette lighter to warm a key for a frozen lock. Don't breathe on the lock as the moisture will condense and freeze.

Check the roof for snow before you drive. It can slip over the windscreen and obscure your view.

Besides an ice scraper and de-icer, it's worth carrying a fully-charged mobile phone, torch, first aid kit, blankets, tow rope, warm coat and boots, jump leads, shovel, warning triangle, an old sack or rug and water repellent spray.

TIME OUT

Plan routes to favour major roads which are more likely to have been gritted.

Put safety before punctuality when the bad weather closes in and accept you may have to be late.

NO SKIDDING

If your vehicle skids, depress the clutch and turn the steering wheel into the direction of the skid. When the vehicle straightens steer along the road.

Don't brake - it will just lock up your wheels and you'll skid further.

If your tyres are making virtually no noise it could be a sign you're driving on ice.

Stopping distances are 10 times longer in ice and snow.

Gentle manoeuvres are the key to safe driving.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 16, 2010 21:06 
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Quote:
"And pack your car with plenty of warm clothing because even daytime temperatures are enough to scare off a polar bear."


As I've beeen advising people...


Dress as if you are going to walk back from wherever you are going!

You might have too!

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 00:00 
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I've seen some advice to do with FWD cars - like using reverse to get out of trouble -can see problems there as reverse is usually a bit lower than any forward gears .But ,here comes an old ,almost ancient dodge - using reverse with FWD cars - a sort of modification of an old RWD dodge .

Done as a cooking list - might whet up an appetite :D
Ingerdients - two sacks /doormats /scrap carpet .
two length of rope/heavy string etc
one shovel .

Method -

Shovel snow from rear of front wheels( and rears- will also help to keep you warm)) .Tie rope/etc to doormats etc .Tie other end of rope to car .Place doormats etc as close to wheels as possible on rear of wheels .Drive off -forget about mats untill you get to somewhere you can stop and take away again .Regain mats , and keep safely for future use .

But driving in snow is one part confidence and two parts skill - as skill increases -so does confidence .Thosedrivers who don't rely overmuch on brakes seem to do best - locked wheels are one way to get into trouble, as is a heavy throttle foot .Going up hill -your best friend is momentum -but not too much - you might want to stop . Going downhill is a bit trickier - keep car moving ,with wheels moving -and forget ABS -cadence breaking is your best friend .It's not about knowing where you can go ,as about recognising where you would be a fool to try going .

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 00:04 
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Must admit, I hadn't thought about the snow-on-the-roof thing. I never bother clearing that (can't reach anyway on an MPV)!

Agree with a lot of it but NOT the suggestion to go downhill in 3rd or 4th - that's positively dangerous, depending on the steepness of the hill! I've been going down at little over tickover in 2nd or even 1st. 3rd or 4th in most cars will have the engine working AGAINST you at "hill-descent" speeds and the idle speed control on most modern cars will actively "fight" you as you try to brake.

Had to laugh at the thought that the sat-nav was a big drain on a battery! Heated rear screen, heated mirrors, heated seats and headlights, maybe, but sat nav????!!!

Letting the car warm up completely (especially with a modern "Euro IV" diesel) could take one hell of a long time - might not even happen at all in cold weather. The car needs to be working to warm up. By all means, fire it up and leave it running while you're scraping the ice, but you'll be there for most of the day if you just sit it ticking over!

Tow rope is a good idea but I've taken to carrying two these last few weeks. They weigh nothing and take up no real space. Tow ropes are so short that if you do go off into a ditch, one tow rope is very unlikely to reach far enough to get to the road surface for someone to try and help you out.

The "turn into a skid" advice completely ignores the fact that there is more than one type of skid and understeer is (I guess) the more common these days. And as for "don't brake"!!!??? I think this was probably written before ABS was invented! The best thing you can probably do in an ABS car (and almost certainly in an ESC-equipped car) is often to plant your foot on the middle pedal and leave the car to sort it out - especially if you're not a particuarly experienced driver!

By far the biggest problems I've had this winter have been the downhill bits. Planning the descent is helpful - looking for the "virgin" snow at the sides of the roads, assessing the verges on the outsides of any bends and having an "escape route" (into a verge, bank or hedge) that looks like it will do the least damage should you need it, are useful.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 00:12 
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botach wrote:
I've seen some advice to do with FWD cars - like using reverse to get out of trouble -can see problems there as reverse is usually a bit lower than any forward gears .But ,here comes an old ,almost ancient dodge - using reverse with FWD cars - a sort of modification of an old RWD dodge.


Yes, I did that the other day in fact. Was collecting someone who was walking to meet me and decided to head up the snowy lane to meet them. It was up hill all the way. Going forwards I stood no chance, but managed to reverse for about half a mile relatively easily. Although reverse is a lower gear, reversing (especially uphill) puts more of the car's weight over the driving wheels - which can make a big difference.

botach wrote:
-and forget ABS -cadence breaking is your best friend


Here I feel I must disagree! By cadence braking, you have no choice but to apply and release all 4 wheels at the same time - even those that might have been able to contribute something useful towards slowing the car. With ABS, keeping your foot on the brake will allow any wheel that has a bit of grip to continue braking and will only release wheel(s) that is/are locking up. Early ABS systems certainly had ther shortcomings but almost all modern ones are (in my experieince at least!) very good indeed.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 00:38 
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Sorry -Mole -we must agree to disagree - any other conditions -I'd agree -but snow/ice - my right foot is better than any electronic system - coupled with skid prevention/correction .

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Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 00:56 
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But how do you make your right foot control each wheel individually?


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 01:23 
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Mole wrote:
But how do you make your right foot control each wheel individually?


Experience ,and practice -something you don't get with electronics.You don't need to control each wheel individually in snow/ice - that's where the system falls down - just the overal control of the vehicle - one time man is superior to electroonics.

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 22:19 
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botach wrote:
forget ABS -cadence breaking is your best friend
Mole wrote:
Here I feel I must disagree! By cadence braking, you have no choice but to apply and release all 4 wheels at the same time - even those that might have been able to contribute something useful towards slowing the car. With ABS, keeping your foot on the brake will allow any wheel that has a bit of grip to continue braking and will only release wheel(s) that is/are locking up. Early ABS systems certainly had there shortcomings but almost all modern ones are (in my experience at least!) very good indeed.
botach wrote:
Sorry -Mole -we must agree to disagree - any other conditions -I'd agree -but snow/ice - my right foot is better than any electronic system - coupled with skid prevention/correction .
Mole wrote:
But how do you make your right foot control each wheel individually?
botach wrote:
Experience ,and practice -something you don't get with electronics.You don't need to control each wheel individually in snow/ice - that's where the system falls down - just the overall control of the vehicle - one time man is superior to electronics.
Every car and every car is different, and so the only way I'd answer this question, is:
Do you know who or which is better from your experience ... or are you just guessing?
Did you remember to ask yourself this question again when you got in a different car?

Some cars are better than others, some drivers are better than others, and the education provided by five minutes of getting to know how a car behaves will always be a better answer than either, "all ABS systems suck!", or "I just let the car correct for my mistakes."

There's one piece of electro-nanny wisdom I've found rings true ...
As far as ABS, Traction Control, and Emergency Brake Assist are concerned, the less often the driver requires them to intervene, the better. Smoother is safer.

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1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 22:41 
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Yes, I can agree with that - best not to have ANY of the electronic aids cut in - in much the same way as it's best not to have the seat belts or airbags working either!

However, I think we need to look at the article in the context in which it's written, i.e. for "Joe Average" who isn't especially interested or well trained when it comes to cars. I know that many race and rally drivers prefer a car without electronic aids, and good luck to them, but I know I'd want all the help I could get if the brown stuff hit the fan (or indeed, the white stuff)!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 17, 2010 23:28 
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I have to agree with Botach here. I have driven many ABS and non ABS cars on snow. I actually have a non ABS and an ABS car parked on my drive now and no matter which ABS car, I drive, I still cannot pull up to an Icy/snowy junction as smoothly/ cleanly in an ABS car as a non ABS. I can't work out what it is that I'm doing wrong (if anything) but I find that that gentle foot control with the non ABS cars cannot be reproduced as easily on ABS cars.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 14:45 
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Weird! My car came in ABS and non-ABS versions and I've driven both plenty of times. If you pulled the fuse out of the ABS system on the ABS car and blindfolded me, I wouldn't be able to tell the difference. (Well, OK, I'd probably crash!) :)

The ABS cars I've driven just seem to behave like non-ABS cars right up until the ABS cuts in.

I wonder if the general trend towards asbestos-free pads and the corresponding higher servo ratios that came with it is just a confounding factor in all this? In other words, when the law changed to only allow asbestos-free pads, the grip of the pad on the disc got much worse (although they're a million times better after driving through a flood than old asbestos pads used to be)! The result was to increase the amount of servo assistance, which, in turn, robs some of the feel coming back through the pedal. At around the same time, cars with ABS became much more common AND there was a general trend towards increased refinement (so even lighter controls and even less feel). Perhaps it's not so much the ABS system "per se" that's the cause of the problems but lots of other things that happened at around the same time?

I should explain that "my" car is 20 years old and requires a huge amount of pedal effort compared to more modern cars. It's almost impossible to get the ABS to cut in on warm dry tarmac in normal driving, and it requires a surprising amount of effort even in the wet. On sheet ice, it will come in at (obviously) much lower pedal efforts, of course.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 18, 2010 17:14 
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I'm comparing a 1993 Mr2 (non ABS) to a 1996 Omega estate (ABS), no matter how gently I brake in the Omega on packed snow/sheet Ice I can't get a controlled stop without the ABS cutting in at the last moment and the brakes start pulsing and you just have to "wait for nature to take it's course". No problems like that with the MR2.

This is something I've always found with ABS vehicles on snow and I've been driving ABS vehicles for the last twenty years and non ABS for 36 years and often both types of vehicle on the same day.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 00:04 
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Hmmm. Curious!

If you pull the ABS fuse out of the Omega is it any better? That would, perhaps, be the fairest comparison because then everything else is kept the same. The MR2 is such a different car in so many respects - although I accept they're probably not the only two you've driven! I have a VW Sharan as a company car - which is just plain awful on snow and ice, but I put that down to the fuel saver tyres (no grip at the best of times!) and it's bulk and high centre of gravity. The wife's X-Trail is similarly heavy and nearly as tall but seems to stop MUCH better - even in 2WD mode (although I've a feeling that if it senses a wheel locking or spinning, it puts itself into 4WD drive mode even if the dash selector is in 2WD, so I'm not at all sure it's fair).


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 08:50 
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I must admit, I was at the point of going to remove abs fuse from Omega but then the snow started to melt. ( we really only had about a week of anything significant here)

Next time we get any decent amount that will be the first thing that I do.

I was driving a ABS Honda Aerospace estate when we had a couple of days snow last year and didn't notice any problems braking on snow with that (I didn't think it was an ABS car until I noticed the ABS fuse was missing when I had another electrical fault on it later in the year.) so obviously the ABS being disabled made a difference.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 14:43 
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May I make another plea for PREPARATION & DECISION AGAINST any journey, if the conditions are clearly snowy and icy, please.

Here's the press-statement made, recently, by a senior member of our County's policeforce (collision-investigation team) He's also President of the local RoSPA (Advanced Drivers & Riders Group)...........

..........'motorists should be honest with themselves about the conditions they faced and during snow and ice to only consider driving if it was a "lifesaving mission"........

Both The Highway Code and the Driving Standards Agency err upon the side of not driving, don't they?


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 16:28 
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samandben wrote:
May I make another plea for PREPARATION & DECISION AGAINST any journey, if the conditions are clearly snowy and icy, please.


Indeed. During the recent unpleasantness I have found that travelling by rail has kept me very "safe in the snow"

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 17:42 
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Quote:
..........'motorists should be honest with themselves about the conditions they faced and during snow and ice to only consider driving if it was a "lifesaving mission"........

Both The Highway Code and the Driving Standards Agency err upon the side of not driving, don't they?



This is all very well if we just have a day or two of snow but some countries have months of it and where would that advice get them? Close the country down for 6 months of the year?

If you totally ban every form of motorised transport during snow bound weeks how do we get about, how do surgeons and nurses get to hospitals, how does food get into the shops, how do power workers get to supply our electricity?

The list of necessary services that depend on someone driving to work because the trains don't run past their place of work or in the early hours is enormous.

Short of closing the country down totally, where we all huddle round a campire and eat the nearest passing animal, like cavemen, this advice is ridiculous.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 19:18 
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samandben wrote:
........'motorists should be honest with themselves about the conditions they faced and during snow and ice to only consider driving if it was a "lifesaving mission"........

Both The Highway Code and the Driving Standards Agency err upon the side of not driving, don't they?

Maybe, but they are basically wrong. I probably wouldn't go out for a nice drive round the New Forest if it snowed but I would certainly try to get to work in a bit of snow. You can't just be defeatist and let bad weather stop your activities.

Where does this stop? Dear Boss, I couldn't come it to work today as it's raining and everyone knows the accident rate is higher in rain and I just didn't want to take the risk.

I'm not saying that you should not take cognisance of the circumstances and take extra care but you can't stop all activity "just in case".

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PostPosted: Tue Jan 19, 2010 22:10 
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malcolmw wrote:
Where does this stop?


It stops when the probable cost of your accident if you go out, exceeds the cost of the loss of productivity if you don't.

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