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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 20:24 
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Folks,

There has been some debate recently on the issue of police stopping bikers and issuing them with hi-vis clothing. In the recent M.A.G. mag, some people are concerned about the possibility of legal compulsion upon them to wear these vests.

IMHO it does seem sensible to wear hi-vis clothing if we want to avoid being hit by cagers, but there is a question of who should wear this clothing if compulsion is introduced? Obviously cyclists would have to wear the vests, but there is another group of road users who are maybe even more vulnerable and that is – pedestrians.

Compulsion for people to wear hi-vis clothing while walking near the public highway (on pavements) or upon it (crossing the road) should be easy enough. There would be no possible exceptions and law breakers would be quite obvious and easy to stop. Officers could conveniently issue fixed penalty notices, as the offenders would only be walking (or in some cases running).

Now some libertarian whingers might cry that they want to wear clothing of their own choice in public. Surely this is backward thinking. Consider the following:

If compulsory hi – vis clothing on all pedestrians on or near the public highway can stop the death of one dithering jaywalker, is this not a price worth paying ?

I think we all know the answer to that one.

C.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 20:49 
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Cooler wrote:
If compulsory hi – vis clothing on all pedestrians on or near the public highway can stop the death of one dithering jaywalker, is this not a price worth paying ?

The sentiment is consistent with that from the 'speed kills' brigade, but IMO they both go too far without tackling the underlying problem.

I would be happy with:
- compulsory, regular tuition of the young,
- hauling up parents of run-over (in the road) children before the courts to face a charge of child neglect (assuming the drivers actions was predictable),
- an on-the-spot fine, or 'pedestrian awareness courses', for those caught crossing a road without first looking.

I should point out that the official government stats (table 4i, RCGB2007) states that pedestrian error (such as failed to look properly) is a contributory factor to 74% of pedestrian casualties, rising to 85% for child casualties. Hence it is right that something should be done in this area.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 21:03 
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If compulsory hi – vis clothing on all pedestrians on or near the public highway can stop the death of one dithering jaywalker, is this not a price worth paying ?


50 million pedestrians. Hi viz gear at £10 a person. £500million to save one life. That certainly isn't a price worth paying. That money could save a lot more than one life if spent appropriately.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 21:03 
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Compulsion for people to wear hi-vis clothing while walking near the public highway (on pavements) or upon it (crossing the road) should be easy enough. There would be no possible exceptions and law breakers would be quite obvious and easy to stop. Officers could conveniently issue fixed penalty notices, as the offenders would only be walking (or in some cases running).


Why stop there - why not fence of all access to roads from the pavement and only allow those people who are in possession of a safety certificate to cross the roads.Works on the railways -and would certainly protect the pedestrian from ot's own folly .( oops sarcasism smilie's gone walkies :D )

Else -return to the old road safety education at schools - catch them young and educare them young -and if they feel the need to enforce -we need a jaywalking law .( perhaps also a law against using mobiles on pavements too :) )


And BTW -when all and their dog are walking around in Hi viz -who'll stand out strongest - yep -the one not wearing it .

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 21:14 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Hi viz gear at £10 a person.

A tenner? You can pick them up for £2 from fleabay, and that's including delivery; they're only a quid if collected.

In Germany, it is compulsory to have a hi-viz vest for every occupant in a car.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 21:32 
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Steve wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
Hi viz gear at £10 a person.

A tenner? You can pick them up for £2 from fleabay, and that's including delivery; they're only a quid if collected.

In Germany, it is compulsory to have a hi-viz vest for every occupant in a car.


Now that's something I'd back .I'll go even further -I carry at least four items in my car( and not just vests) .Stuff I use is reckoned to be visible at up to two miles( last time I broke down on M6 -trafpol said he'd seen me & missus at least a mile away) ,and know it's visible at least two hundred yards at night with a handlamp .But the stuff I carry is probably at the low end of dcb's quote .I'd hate to gamble my life on cheap Hi viz vest, which is not designed to snap off if caught on some passing vehicle -the better quality stuff has pop fastners as a safety back up .Jackets/fleeces and bodywarmers are even better - they help keep you warm out of the car if caught out on a motorway .

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 22:13 
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I used to wear a full hi vis jacket sometimes, it was waterproof too which was nice. I also wore a Sam Brown belt at night on a push bike and have been known to wear either if walking down unlit lanes - usually on the way to or from a pub :)

It should not be compulsory, just common sense! If anything cyclists and pedestrians are more in need of reflective clothing than bikers, after all bikes usually have nice, bright lights.

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PostPosted: Sun Feb 21, 2010 22:38 
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toltec wrote:
all bikes usually have nice, bright lights.


Or RATHER - SHOULD have nice, bright lights--and Pedestrians should have nice bright ( to danger ) brains - problem is that todays road safety policy has placed an invisible opaque screen on both ,in that cyclists and pedestrians now believe that all cars are fitted with radar ( and live in the belief that if I can see him -so ergo ,he can see me ) .
Perhaps the ultimate desire for car safety researchers should be a crystal ball calibrated to identify and identify cyclist and pedestrian intent .Till then ,perhaps we should either educate these species ,or label them with something identifiable and install cycle/ped cameras to help HMG make up some sort of tax deficit . :shock:

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 09:57 
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High visibility vests are available at any shop selling protective gear...which includes Halfords and any tool shop and many market stalls.
They are VAT free.
They conform to the relevant BS EN 471.
They are available for children from £1.23 and have velcro fastening.
Full high_viz insulated and waterproof jackets are available, to the same BS, from as little as £7.00 (or less)
High viz clothing is required as a motoring accessory in many EU countries by law.

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 12:06 
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I agree with dcb, this solution does not provide value either in financial terms, or in terms of the freedoms required to be sacrificed. It's also pretty one-sided, until we mandate that all motor vehicles on the roads be painted in bright day-glo colours.

I ride a dark blue motorcycle with lights on day and night (except sometimes when I have a low sun at my back), my helmet is dark but with light detailing, my jacket is black and white, and my trousers are black with reflective piping. Yes, I could go a lot further in becoming more visible, but the stuff I have is comfortable, protective, warm and I like the way it looks; I can mitigate the risks of not being as visible as I possibly could be by riding in a manner which does not require other road users to "see and avoid" me, as I integrate less intrusively with traffic flow, and always assume that I have not been seen in my decision-making.

Likewise cyclists, and especially pedestrians, can do, and be helped in doing, much more in mitigating the risks to themselves, without prescriptive and expensive rules over what they wear. Education, continuation and enforcement would safen the behaviour of these groups much less intrusively, but would require thought, effort, and a degree of trust in the public, rather than intense micro-management.

Hmm, I'm off to buy shares in 3M just in case... :D

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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 13:42 
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Again ,it's a case of the individual is responsible for their own safety. If you feel that you are likely to break down on a dangerous road, then fine buy a reflective jacket and wear it, but at the same time realise that it doesn't give you the right to act more carelessly, near fast moving traffic, just because people can see you better.

Once you get to the point that everyone feels that they are, as safe as safe can be, then people become complacent and that's when accidents happen.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Sun Mar 07, 2010 23:43 
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graball wrote:
Again ,it's a case of the individual is responsible for their own safety. If you feel that you are likely to break down on a dangerous road, then fine buy a reflective jacket and wear it,.


Or carry at least one in car ,but at times that won't be enough - vigilance is also needed . RE -tale from a workmate of mine ,when he worked in London - one of his staff cycled in ,wearing full railway hi viz safety kit( looking as he'd been tangoed) .One day he was cut up by a car ,driver's response " SMIDSY"- fortunately he was looking out for problems - point as above .

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PostPosted: Mon Mar 08, 2010 10:35 
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I ride a black motorcycle.
I wear a rather fetching high-visibility blouson-style jacket...with a white helmet....
Apart from being seen more easily by other drivers, it also gets them to move out of my way.
Other wear the same style and colour gear as well....they are called police.
Funny how car drivers always notice police-style motorcyclists but never the ones in red/yellow/blue/green leathers ?
Anyway, with my bright yellow gear I can ride right through traffic....in my blacks I crawl along getting cut-up and hindered at every turn...
Must be a motto to it somewhere ?

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56 years after it was decided it was needed, the Bedford Bypass is nearing completion. The last single carriageway length of it.We have the most photogenic mayor though, always being photographed doing nothing


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PostPosted: Tue Mar 09, 2010 05:41 
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jomukuk wrote:
.....
Apart from being seen more easily by other drivers, it also gets them to move out of my way.
Other wear the same style and colour gear as well....they are called police.
Funny how car drivers always notice police-style motorcyclists but never the ones in red/yellow/blue/green leathers ?
Anyway, with my bright yellow gear I can ride right through traffic....in my blacks I crawl along getting cut-up and hindered at every turn...
Must be a motto to it somewhere ?

I believe this is a typical motorist reaction to a suspect Police presence. When most people think they might have a police person nearby they check all their driving / riding style, position, speed, attentiveness, accuracy to road conditions and courtesy etc.
So it might be that people see you but not as the same potential 'problem ' not the same required 'response' accordingly.
I agree they should still apply the same attention and courtesy to you no matter what, but I can understand they are likely to be more 'giving' to you if they think that you are a policeman/woman. As a biker many will think that you will pass by in a little while anyway, so it is less necessary to allow you easy voluntary passage, as you will get by soon anyway - as it were. I don't agree with behaviour of this kind, we all need to be attentive to other motorists needs and be as courteous and helpful as is sensible and necessary.

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 11:14 
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You can easily have too much of a good thing.

Hi-Viz is good for making an individual stand out from a dull background.

But if everybody wears Hi-Viz??

Past some roadworks a while back with a number of roadworkers wering hi-viz. The effect was to lose sight of the individuals involved, all I could see was a sea of swirling dayglo! No way of telling what any individual was doing and whether or not he was moving into a position where I would have to take evasive action!

Ho Humm

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PostPosted: Tue Mar 16, 2010 21:44 
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Dusty wrote:
You can easily have too much of a good thing.

Hi-Viz is good for making an individual stand out from a dull background.

But if everybody wears Hi-Viz??



Now quoting myself from previous post -

Quote:
And BTW -when all and their dog are walking around in Hi viz -who'll stand out strongest - yep -the one not wearing it .



Couple of years ago was out on track -all you could see was a sea of orange .The furtherv up the track ,my mate stopped to take of his jacket -but first his hi viz - and he was wearing a dark jacket underneath - and he might as well have had a neon sign above shouting "I'm here" :)

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 20:04 
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Sounds like a really bad idea. You'll get people wearing their governmentally assigned clothing and thinking they are safe because they are told they are, then walking into the road without looking...

Even if these things are VAT free, how can I claim back the income tax, employee's national insurance tax and employer's national insurance tax stolen because I dared to earn the money to buy it? How can I claim back the fuel tax used to transport it? What about other taxes incurred in running a shop?

There were, apparently, 2414 legal documents created in 2008 and 2395 in 2009. We need fewer laws, not more.

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PostPosted: Wed Mar 17, 2010 23:34 
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Ziltro wrote:
Sounds like a really bad idea. You'll get people wearing their governmentally assigned clothing and thinking they are safe because they are told they are, then walking into the road without looking...



Trouble is that those who wear HI VIZ as part of their jobs ,and recieve safety training look first ,then act .They are taught that their safety ,and that of their workmates , depends on EVERYONE being safety aware .One of the basic failures of this Governments safety policy is that ( for example ) on the roads -drivers are responsible .Best example I can give is from driving through railway sites ,where soinding the horn is accepted as warning of approach - blokes look up and acknowledge ,if necessary move out of the way -the driver slows down and is prepared to stop so that all can go home on one piece .Try that on the roads -where the horn is used for two purposes -primarly by chavs to shout hallo to a mate ,or try to attract the attention of a nice bit of skirt , Or (as percoeved by pedestrians) to bully them out of the way -.

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PostPosted: Thu Mar 18, 2010 02:47 
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Being stuck here in Amerika ...

I carry eight Hi-Vis vests in my car because it's a great idea (a Caprice Wagon can hold seven passengers plus the driver).
However ...
If it became law, I'd still have them, but I'd be very unnerved.
botach wrote:
Trouble is that those who wear HI VIZ as part of their jobs, and receive safety training look first, then act. They are taught that their safety, and that of their workmates, depends on EVERYONE being safety aware.
My considerable driving experience leads me to believe that most drivers are not very well trained.

See, once you get out of the car, you become a pedestrian. Keep in mind that while pedestrians are almost never legally liable for their behavior, some statistics show that pedestrians bear the brunt of the causal responsibility in several types of collisions. At least some small part of this may have to do with the fact that pedestrians require no training whatsoever.

Seems to me that a law requiring any sort of 'pedestrian' to wear a Hi-Vis vest - even a temporarily circumstantial pedestrian (my car broke down) - would have the effect of the vest serving notice to any and all drivers that any such adorned pedestrian has no legal responsibility whatsoever for his/her own safety.

On the other hand ...
Many pedestrians already walk around thinking they have no legal responsibility to protect themselves from the potential mistakes of ANY road users, especially including their own. Maybe this is an idea whose time has come, and I'm too far behind the times.

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Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
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PostPosted: Mon Oct 04, 2010 16:27 
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Good afternoon

I am new to this forum. This subject will never have a single definitive answer although I really like the points (3,4,5) raised by The Rush in the USA.

We now seem to live in a society (litiginous) where we have to offload our own responsibility onto others. I was a traffic patrol officer on both bikes and car for over 20 years, ending up riding a bike and clothing that made me stand out like Captain Kirk's starship. It did not prevent me from being splattered down the road by 'white van man' who was on his mobile 'phone at the time and had been drinking. I was on a blue light call with sirens ...... this did not give me the right to divine protection and the responsibility for my actions were my own. However, I had 14 witnesses on my behalf and the van driver was prosecuted. The point that I am making is that being 'right' does not alleviate the pain and distress suffered through injury and the 18 months off work. I subscribe to the ethic of 'are we doing it right and can we do it better?' Looking back I could probably have done better, but we are not equipped with 20/20 hindsight. The philosophy of the kids is spreading into the adult world......'It wasn't my fault'. 'I couldn't help it' and 'I didn't mean to'..... this abdication of responsibility truly threatens us all.

Since leaving the police I have strived to gain every driving and motorcycle training qualification. I am a RoSPA examiner and IAM examiner along with being a senior risk manager in the Fleet Driver training industry. When I give a presentation, the first things I show are the photographs of my crash. No one is immune, and training is the most cost effective accessory one can buy. Forget the 'My car's got eight air bags so it is four times safer than one with two. Drive as if you don't have any and that everyone else on the road is from the shallow end of the gene pool. That way you will not be relying on others for your own safety,
As for relying on Hi Viz jackets................ they are just another aid which MAY lessen the risk.
:soapbox:


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