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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 09:12 
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graball wrote:
I would say that it's simpler than even that.
I believe that they are so much "in belief" of the "speedkills" propaganda, that they can't see anything else apart from that.


That is simply not true. If you take the trouble to examine their web site in some detail you will see that their manifesto goes far beyond "speedkills". Whilst I deplore their misguided obsession with speed, many of their manifesto points are quite in line with the Safe Speed message. For example it is difficult to argue with:
"Make traffic policing a national policing priority " ;
"Make it compulsory for drivers to have regular health tests, which increase in frequency for elderly drivers, including eyesight"
"Make driving on illegal drugs an offence"

Their are a lot of strawmen being made in this thread about their attitude to road safety training
If you look at the Brake website you will see that there is a massive amount of advice about road safety and how to survive on the roads.

This link, for example, aimed at young children http://www.trafficclub.co.uk/ makes the points
"Stop Look and Listen before crossing the road"
"Choose a safe place, such as a zebra crossing, to cross the road"
"Hold hands with an adult"
"Wear hi-visibility clothing"
"Wear seatbelts in cars"

Quite the antithesis of the conclusion which would draw from reading that children have no responsibility for their own safety that one would draw from reading comment here such as these.
RobinXe wrote:
Surely it would do them a better service to teach them how to protect themselves on the roads!

Botach wrote:
I was beginning to think that those that remember being taught something of the ilk of the Green Cross code, as a child were a dying breed .

Steve wrote:
ignoring the alternatives such as education/enforcement of other road user groups,

Johnnytheboy wrote:
Not teaching kids how to cross the road is not about stopping motorists holding all the power, it's idiotic dogma and risking children's lives in order to play anti-car politics.


It is inevitable that an organisation who's intention is to prevent pedestrian casualties on the road will appear to some extent to be anti car. They would be failing in their mission if they did not.

"

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 13:00 
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Whilst I deplore their misguided obsession with speed, many of their manifesto points are quite in line with the Safe Speed message.


Yes butthat is their problem, they are obsessed with speed and claim it to be the number 1 killer on roads which any sensible, thinking person knows isn't true. They do throw in other phrases which have been borrowed/fed to them but I wouldn't say that any of their more sensible safety phrases are anything new or unique to them and I doubt if they really understand the true meaning of most of them, let alone truely believe them.
I bet if you asked some of their leaders to quote them, they would struggle with anything that didn't include the word speed.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 13:37 
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Yes Graball but the perception, widely aired on this forum, that Brake do nothing to teach children about road safety is plainly untrue. You are all in danger of throwing out the baby with the bathwater because you don't like the colour of its hair.

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 14:04 
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I made a point of printing the whole of their manifesto in the interest of fairness.

And then highlighted the bonkers bits

Clearly there are areas of agreement between :ss: and Brake as we're both campaigning on the same subject.

Neither of us want any accidents of any kind to occur on the road, but our preferred medicine and campaigning styles are very different.


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 14:20 
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The very name "BRAKE" sums up their core philosophy. They wish to achieve the same end as us - improved safety - but want to do so by impractical and draconian restrictions on liberty whereas we take the more pragmatic approach of improving skills and education rather than punishment.

There are bound to be overlap of ideas in some areas but it's core beliefs that separate us. Perhaps we should form a coalition with them. Very popular at the moment and all it needs is for one side or the other to forget its principles...

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 15:41 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
That is simply not true. If you take the trouble to examine their web site in some detail you will see that their manifesto goes far beyond "speedkills". Whilst I deplore their misguided obsession with speed, many of their manifesto points are quite in line with the Safe Speed message. For example it is difficult to argue with:
"Make it compulsory for drivers to have regular health tests, which increase in frequency for elderly drivers, including eyesight"

That would be grossly intrusive and a complete waste of time and money which would only serve the purpose of deterring people from driving, which of course is what BRAKE wants. I certainly don't support that, and AFAIK SafeSpeed doesn't officially either.

dcbwhaley wrote:
"Make driving on illegal drugs an offence"

I thought that already was an offence :roll:

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 16:07 
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The response to the plea for "regular health tests" is surely an evidence based one. How many accidents have as their primary cause, the ill health or infirmity of the driver?

On this basis, should there be any such thing as a "disabled driver"?

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PostPosted: Fri Oct 15, 2010 17:34 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
"Make traffic policing a national policing priority " ;

Policing what policies? Their own 'speed kills' agenda?

dcbwhaley wrote:
"Make it compulsory for drivers to have regular health tests, which increase in frequency for elderly drivers, including eyesight"
"Make driving on illegal drugs an offence"

That doesn't preclude them from being anti-motorist.

dcbwhaley wrote:
If you look at the Brake website you will see that there is a massive amount of advice about road safety and how to survive on the roads.

This link, for example, aimed at young children http://www.trafficclub.co.uk/ makes the points

Sorry, I thought we were talking about Brake?

dcbwhaley wrote:
If you take the trouble to examine their web site in some detail you will see that their manifesto goes far beyond "speedkills".

Where in Brake's manifesto do the list of points ("aimed at young children") you raised appear?

dcbwhaley wrote:
Quite the antithesis of the conclusion which would draw from reading that children have no responsibility for their own safety...

Their vision/manifesto is quite detailed, enough to be considered comprehensive for their own agenda. It has goals about drivers, roads (restrictions and limits), enforcement, and vehicles, but precious little about what should be expected from other road users.

An aside: I hope everyone recognises the difference between wards and guardians.

dcbwhaley wrote:
It is inevitable that an organisation who's intention is to prevent pedestrian casualties on the road will appear to some extent to be anti car. They would be failing in their mission if they did not.

The critical flaw is what groups are targeted while trying to prevent casualties. I say again: Those who make such demands towards motorists, while ignoring the alternatives such as education/enforcement of other road user groups, can rightly be labelled as anti-motorist..
I would not label them as anti-car if they were focussing on other road users with comparable vigour.


", warning against driving."

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PostPosted: Tue Nov 09, 2010 20:05 
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RobinXe wrote:
Is there no way they can be brought to account for spouting this nonsense in a quasi-official role?

What is the point in sending this message to school children? Surely it would do them a better service to teach them how to protect themselves on the roads!

Near my home, road signs have been erected that have been designed by children, presumably at the nearby school, urging drivers to slow down. These are the same children who, come home time, are meandering and messing about several abreast, off the pavement and into the road despite narrow roads, blind bends and a humpback bridge! Still, they spent their class time designing those signs, so they should be ok!


:gatso2:Is there something of a legal question of illegal road signage there? even to the point where such signage actually causes a distraction?

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 12:40 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
Yes Graball but the perception, widely aired on this forum, that Brake do nothing to teach children about road safety is plainly untrue.

If they are blindly and ignorantly inculcating the message to children that speed kills I wouldn’t call that teaching them about road safety, I would call it indoctrination of the worst kind...

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 13:36 
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Big Tone wrote:
If they are blindly and ignorantly inculcating the message to children that speed kills I wouldn’t call that teaching them about road safety, I would call it indoctrination of the worst kind...


I'd use somewhat stronger terms to describe it.

They are giving impressionable young minds the message that as long as the traffic is travelling within the speed limit, they can walk out into the traffic with impunity.
:shock:

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 13:59 
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Pete317 wrote:
Big Tone wrote:
If they are blindly and ignorantly inculcating the message to children that speed kills I wouldn’t call that teaching them about road safety, I would call it indoctrination of the worst kind...


I'd use somewhat stronger terms to describe it.

They are giving impressionable young minds the message that as long as the traffic is travelling within the speed limit, they can walk out into the traffic with impunity.
:shock:

Even a child isn't dim enough to use logic like that. Surely you don't think anyone is taking your suggestion seriously.


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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 14:25 
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GreenShed wrote:
Even a child isn't dim enough to use logic like that.

viewtopic.php?p=231880#p231880
viewtopic.php?p=231818#p231818 :hello:

GreenShed wrote:
Pete317 wrote:
They are giving impressionable young minds the message that as long as the traffic is travelling within the speed limit, they can walk out into the traffic with impunity.
:shock:

Surely you don't think anyone is taking your suggestion seriously.

What they are certainly doing is skewing priorities, focussing too much on one method at the expense of neglecting a comparatively effective one. Rather like policing on the cheap via speed cameras instead of using actual traffic patrols.

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 21:19 
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GreenShed wrote:
Even a child isn't dim enough to use logic like that. Surely you don't think anyone is taking your suggestion seriously.


I didn't have to look for long through the Brake website to find, within the space of about a page in one article:

Quote:
We want drivers to be automatically responsible for any crash involving a child pedestrian or cyclist under civil law


Quote:
We also want drivers to be automatically responsible for any crash involving a child pedestrian or cyclist under criminal law


Quote:
We demand that drivers assume automatic responsibility for the safety of the child pedestrians and cyclists around them, so they are not put at a legal disadvantage for simply ‘acting their age’


Quote:
We want penalties for speeding in built-up areas – where kids are most likely to be out and about on foot and bicycles – to be appropriately severe


Quote:
We want high fines of no lower than £1,000 plus four penalty points for anyone caught driving above the speed limit

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PostPosted: Wed Nov 10, 2010 23:56 
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Pete317 wrote:

I didn't have to look for long through the Brake website to find, within the space of about a page in one article:

Quote:
We want drivers to be automatically responsible for any crash involving a child pedestrian or cyclist under civil law


Quote:
We also want drivers to be automatically responsible for any crash involving a child pedestrian or cyclist under criminal law


Quote:
We demand that drivers assume automatic responsibility for the safety of the child pedestrians and cyclists around them, so they are not put at a legal disadvantage for simply ‘acting their age’


Quote:
We want penalties for speeding in built-up areas – where kids are most likely to be out and about on foot and bicycles – to be appropriately severe


Quote:
We want high fines of no lower than £1,000 plus four penalty points for anyone caught driving above the speed limit


None of that is relevant to Greenshed's point, which I wholeheartedly support, that even the most impressionable young mind is unlikely to conclude that as long as the traffic is travelling within the speed limit, they can walk out into the traffic with impunity.

In my experience most youngsters have a great respect for traffic and are well aware that they need to look for their own safety. But at that age they .are not really equipped to make accurate judgements about whether it is safe for them to cross the road.

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 00:28 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
In my experience most youngsters have a great respect for traffic and are well aware that they need to look for their own safety


And (also probably which is why) the vast majority of youngsters can fully expect to get through their whole lives without being involved in a road accident, or probably even as much as an 'incident'.

But not all...

How many times have you heard the expression, "If it saves just one life then it's worth it", used when the subject is speed cameras, enforcement, etc.
By the same token, we can say about conveying the wrong messages, "If it costs just one life...".

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 09:45 
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Pete317 wrote:
dcbwhaley wrote:
In my experience most youngsters have a great respect for traffic and are well aware that they need to look for their own safety


And (also probably which is why) the vast majority of youngsters can fully expect to get through their whole lives without being involved in a road accident, or probably even as much as an 'incident'.

But not all...

How many times have you heard the expression, "If it saves just one life then it's worth it", used when the subject is speed cameras, enforcement, etc.
By the same token, we can say about conveying the wrong messages, "If it costs just one life...".

All of the BRAKE quotes do not support the idea that the children or anyone else will conclude that it is safe when drivers are driving at the speed limit. This idea was mooted and has been sustained by members here in relation to drivers thinking its safe as long as they drive at the speed limit; to children who use the road assuming it is safe if drivers drive at the speed limit and the immediate idea in this thread proposed by you that children will assume it is safe to step out if the traffic is travelling at the speed limit.

Are you appreciating the theme now?

Yes that's it; none of what you have said in relation to this makes any sense whatsoever....Looks out of the window and sees children stepping out onto the road because the traffic is moving below the speed limit....No that's just hallucinations....Off to the doctor....wibble.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 13:36 
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GreenShed wrote:
Yes that's it; none of what you have said in relation to this makes any sense whatsoever....Looks out of the window and sees children stepping out onto the road because the traffic is moving below the speed limit....No that's just hallucinations....Off to the doctor....wibble.


Would that be similar to the hallucination of hordes of maniacal drivers flying along at 150mph and mowing down innocent children in their thousands, which your bunch appears to see every day then?

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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 14:12 
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Pete317 wrote:
GreenShed wrote:
Yes that's it; none of what you have said in relation to this makes any sense whatsoever....Looks out of the window and sees children stepping out onto the road because the traffic is moving below the speed limit....No that's just hallucinations....Off to the doctor....wibble.


Would that be similar to the hallucination of hordes of maniacal drivers flying along at 150mph and mowing down innocent children in their thousands, which your bunch appears to see every day then?

Well that's all very interesting but why have you not proposed a 150mph speed limit or better still an unlimited scheme. This is a really practical thing you could do as a collective just to see how you get on when you try out your principles on those who matter.

Stop whining, put your balls on the table and get on with it.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 11, 2010 14:25 
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GreenShed wrote:
Well that's all very interesting but why have you not proposed a 150mph speed limit or better still an unlimited scheme. This is a really practical thing you could do as a collective just to see how you get on when you try out your principles on those who matter.

Stop whining, put your balls on the table and get on with it.


:? Have you been at the whacky baccy again?

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