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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 10:57 
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botach wrote:
Not trying to look for problems ,but - "Momentum exists " , seems something like another snappy saying "Speed kILLS ".
Yep... a tag title... an identity for reference for those that consider andor discuss its subject..... just a small subject relative to your next suggestion.......
botach wrote:
Problem is that no one ever sat down and thought about "SAFETY EXISTS"-like when all road users are in harmony over their right to treat each other as equals, looking out for the safety of all .
Speed is not treated as the be all and end all of road safety .
Road safety is maximised when all road users are educated to expect that other users will do the unexpected ,and allow for that fact .
SAFETY EXISTS, would be the ultimate!.... although consider it made up of way too many subject areas to consider/discuss as one.... your line of 'in harmony....treat as equals...' is brilliant.
I love it when a set of traffic lights fail.... and all (most) seem to shine as free thinking considerate drivers of safe and well judged decision making individuals... all making the junction flow blissfully.... and the mood.... harmoneous.

I wonder the big safety picture is actually vast..... considerate attitude and all in harmony is probably top value... but then rules are needed so highway code... then safe vehicle mechanics so MOT standards needed.... even in 'accidents' say a tree falls and a car hits it (just trying to invent a non blame situ)... SAFETY EXISTS would need continue to include... car design impact protection... on and on.... because all are safety efforts.

So i wonder these mini campaign ideas... speed KILLS (although it doesnt) and others..... if they stimulate consideration.... somewhere in your SAFETY EXISTS arena.... they have their place..... but it is just a place.... in amongst loads of other bods chipping in (realised or not realised)..... or quirky.... momentum exists!

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 12:28 
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Ilove it when a set of traffic lights fail.... and all (most) seem to shine as free thinking considerate drivers of safe and well judged decision making individuals... all making the junction flow blissfully.... and the mood.... harmoneous.


This is a very valid point which got me thinking.

There is undoubtedly a lot more road rage, bad driving and un courteousness on the roads now, than when I started driving in the early seventies and I really do wonder, if it is a throw up from the amount of un necessary control that we find on the roads now. I'm absolutely sure that if there were less traffic light controlled junctions where there never used to be, less severe speed humps and less ridiculously low speed limits, that drivers would once again (in the main anyway) become more chilled out, courteous to each other, think more about their driving and there would be far less accidents and aggression. I know loads of middle age drivers who used to love driving and have driven as part of their livelyhood who now state that they hate driving in certain areas, due to the stupid controls forced upon us by the control freaks in LA's, who really don't have a clue about road safety and safe driving.

I feel a poll coming on... ;-)

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 13:01 
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graball wrote:
[. I know loads of middle age drivers who used to love driving and have driven as part of their livelyhood who now state that they hate driving in certain areas, due to the stupid controls forced upon us by the control freaks in LA's, who really don't have a clue about road safety and safe driving.


Spot on. I love driving but i can only do what I consider to be driving for about 5% of the time I am behind the wheel of a car. Traffic lights are the worst and I find myself going through them on amber much more often than I did as an impetuous youth. Sitting at a red light for two minutes looking at an absolutely empty road is quite soul weakening.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 17:15 
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graball wrote:
Quote:This is a very valid point which got me thinking.

There is undoubtedly a lot more road rage, bad driving and un courteousness on the roads now, than when I started driving in the early seventies and I really do wonder, if it is a throw up from the amount of un necessary control that we find on the roads now.
Good points..... wonder also if the law is too fridged or the enforcers need to 'meet targets'... so some motorists (reasonable motorists get punnished... when should have been flexible with punnishment... ie some areas are 20mph limits... by day this may well be suitable... but between midnight and 4am type of times, then pottering around them at 30 should be reasonable/safe.... but in law those motorists are SPEEDING and punished as if SAME AS DAY TIME SELFISH IDIOTS who have little regard for kids around playing etc etc.
Yep perhaps a poll

dcbwhaley wrote:
Spot on. I love driving but i can only do what I consider to be driving for about 5% of the time I am behind the wheel of a car. Traffic lights are the worst and I find myself going through them on amber much more often than I did as an impetuous youth. Sitting at a red light for two minutes looking at an absolutely empty road is quite soul weakening.
I've chatted to our council about traffic lights that are set against the main flow traffic.. ie stop it for nothing coming out side turn.. they called it traffic calming... I suggested traffic stopping... and releasing of more wound up drivers for the road and people in it ahead... they changed the subject :)


:arrow: Perhaps a new thread and or a poll on this subject...... pop the link to it on a post here..... then anyone inerested (reckon loads) in contributing could continue on that thread.... perhaps there is a thread already existing don't know.... subject is good one though. worthy of thread :?:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 18:19 
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viewtopic.php?f=9&t=25971

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 28, 2012 20:28 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Why the concentration on momentum ?
I think Big Tone makes a very valid point too when he writes,
Big Tone wrote:
If you needed to know the technical details and physics behind riding a bike, most of us would never have learnt. As Steve puts it so well...

.. and then quotes Steve's valid points, that you have yet to debate?
I think that when people drive or ride, we don't think too much about all the mechanics (although I probably do more than most as it happens) but what makes a good driver/rider, and how much does 'momentum' and any learning thereof benefit their abilities to drive more safely?
Might I be correct in thinking too that you think that momentum resolves down to the fundamental issue with travelling 'safely'?
You agree with a comment by Big Tone which starts "If you needed to know....."
There is no "you need to know this" mentality from the concept design.

With Steves points on how much does momentum.... benefit. Answer: the end result is an unknown as have not started yet.

But here again, is the concept base:
mass, speed and direction awareness.... all three are relevant to vehicle placement on our roads
(do not twist that these are only three relevant.... but do consider if all three have a relevance)

relevance of concept worth?
If all drivers were calculating all the time... mass, speed and direction awareness AND anticipating the same of all vehicles and obstacles around.... it could help to be a safer place.
NOTE.... many drivers do this anyway, they are in fact processing complex calculations on collision avoidence and most courteous position to place the car or leave a gap, or extra safety gap because they are fully loaded etc etc etc..... the momentum bit brings no new magic cure, but is seen (i see) potential to nail three elements, relavent to good driving..... under one label and dish out a fresh word to stimulate thinking, consideration, and perhaps a level of education, for some.

On that note..... just today we (design) have ressolved a snag point to a poster quest.... it will take about two weeks to tweek all to be inline.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 01:41 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
The crucial point here isn't the physics but the way in which the person failed to read the road and 'turn a bit sharpish' in the first place. So if I was sitting in the vehicle and discussing it the conversation to help would not be about the physics involved but their failure to observe, consider, anticipate ... and perhaps about skid control had things gone from bad to worse.
you mentioned momentum was not the factor involved when someone spins off the road.... so i gave you a scenario and explained momentum is a factor.... I think what you meant to say is you think drivers loss of control is the chief cause of spinning off the road... in which case, who would disagree (unless non-managed mechanical influence due to a structual failure be the cause).

SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
stephenn wrote:
Hi performance for speed means you can dial in the momentum at extraordinary rates (the driver will testify to this... will be pinned back in seat as car is first to have momentum transfered... the internal organs will be pinned back in the body as the body is ahead of these to have the momentum transferred)....
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
In fact the organs are the last to react not first being the third injury in accidents.
think that is same... vehicle ahead of body, body ahead of organs....transfer of momentum order constant, but obviously pinned back or forwards on acceleration, decelleration respectively....Agreed on something regarding momentum? :)

SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Ah well here in lies the heart of your concept. Yes, it is beyond most people interest. They may understand the facts when explained but not relate it or remember it's significance when actually driving to the shops or to work
This goes as an education strategy challenge... end result unverified.

SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Whilst it is not impossible, ti will be hard and cost a lot of time and effort for the real achievements IMHO. However, does it 'matter' to tell people in this way, when other more easily understood and appreciated phrases already exist to improve road safety ?
Matters to me to air it as made the associations and can see aspects of potential. All the time I glean more info to qualify or reject certain perameters it is work-in-progress, if still tests feasable.... As for other more easily understood and appreciated phrases... I expect people who do road safety for a living would be fluent in and able to distribute that /those messeges, with continuous good effect.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 09:34 
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If we are to accept this pseudo-scientific approach to road safety it would be better to proclaim that ENERGY EXISTS. The damage done in a collision is the consequence of the kinetic energy of the vehicles been dissipated. And , since kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity, it gives much mote grist to the speed-kills mill :evil:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 12:07 
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dcbwhaley wrote:
If we are to accept this pseudo-scientific approach to road safety it would be better to proclaim that ENERGY EXISTS. The damage done in a collision is the consequence of the kinetic energy of the vehicles been dissipated. And , since kinetic energy is proportional to the square of the velocity, it gives much mote grist to the speed-kills mill :evil:



It is also one of the reasons why a good big one is likly to be better than a good little one! The energy of impact tends to end up in the lighter body (though the distribution does depend on the degree of elasticity of the collsion)

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 15:17 
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stephenn wrote:
also incorrect loading. we had a discussion on this relating to a caravan (not overloaded) but with load up front of axles, so adding more load on car rear axle & tyres and less load on car front axles and tyres.... all not good... and all including the gravity x mass = weight.


For a caravan to be stable the centroid of the loaded caravan needs to be in front of the axle to prevent a pendulum effect. The worst thing you can do for stability to have heavy loads behind the axle. Tests have shown that maximum stability is obtained with the nose weight between 5% & 7% of the caravans loaded mass. Therefore the permitted maximum nose weight limit given by the car manufacturer needs to be withing this figure.


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 15:28 
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stephenn wrote:
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Why the concentration on momentum ?
I think Big Tone makes a very valid point too when he writes,
Big Tone wrote:
If you needed to know the technical details and physics behind riding a bike, most of us would never have learnt. As Steve puts it so well...
Might I be correct in thinking too that you think that momentum resolves down to the fundamental issue with travelling 'safely'?
You agree with a comment by Big Tone which starts "If you needed to know....."
I simply agreed that it is a good and valid point.
[Please be aware that the Safe Speed forums are for debate and are free from my official stance of the Campaign as this allows a full and frank discussion. See viewtopic.php?p=171440#p171440]
stephenn wrote:
There is no "you need to know this" mentality from the concept design.
You don't want to be taken seriously ? You don't want to state the 'truth' just a fast line to 'catch people' (arbitrary group) and then when they ask serious questions, it all falls apart, because as long as they might have thought about a few driving 'points' that is OK?
Does that sum it up ?
stephenn wrote:
With Steves points on how much does momentum.... benefit. Answer: the end result is an unknown as have not started yet.
It is not unknown it is of small relevance when compared to safer roads through better motorists behaviours.
stephenn wrote:
But here again, is the concept base:
mass, speed and direction awareness.... all three are relevant to vehicle placement on our roads
(do not twist that these are only three relevant.... but do consider if all three have a relevance)
In what precise way is it relevant to the A-B driver ?
Lets say that you wish to haul the 'lowest common denominator' into the 50%ile driver status, what type of person are they, and how will you approach the psychology to inspire the self-interest which might enable them to want to learn.
Which aspect of driving is the most important to concentrate on, to get the best message/s across to achieve the best and most effective result?
stephenn wrote:
relevance of concept worth?
If all drivers were calculating all the time... mass, speed and direction awareness AND anticipating the same of all vehicles and obstacles around.... it could help to be a safer place.
NOTE.... many drivers do this anyway, they are in fact processing complex calculations on collision avoidance and most courteous position to place the car or leave a gap, or extra safety gap because they are fully loaded etc etc etc

Whilst motorists do make many complex calculations in their day to day travels, many do not do so by 'math & calculus' considerations. Experience, ability and knowledge through learned behaviours & expectations is often all that is required, and hence why I question a 'momentum' statement as if it is a panacea to road safety.
The introduction matters as to how people then behave towards the rest of the information.
stephenn wrote:
..... the momentum bit brings no new magic cure,
So why try to provide an impression that it does, and one that cannot be substantiated? That for many will kill any further interest.
stephenn wrote:
but is seen (i see) potential to nail three elements, relavent to good driving..... under one label and dish out a fresh word to stimulate thinking, consideration, and perhaps a level of education, for some.
You may 'see it' but what have you really seen. People love to talk about motoring as we all have a vast quantity of experiences, different levels of ability, knowledge and subject interest.
I do not see momentum nor its scientific understanding, as necessary to enable people to become better at driving.
There are many ways to open conversations and the best way is often a question for example :
"Are you the best driver"?
"Are you as good as you could be?"
Driving : Good or bad? and so on ... it opens up the discussion and gets right to it without the need for confusing the issue about 'what is mass', what is momentum?
stephenn wrote:
On that note..... just today we (design) have ressolved a snag point to a poster quest.... it will take about two weeks to tweek all to be inline.
But if you haven't proved that what you are doing is 'best practice' and you want to thrash it out here (all for that), :clap: why are you producing posters, before this concept stage is complete?
stephenn wrote:
..you mentioned momentum was not the factor involved when someone spins off the road.... so i gave you a scenario and explained momentum is a factor
In skidding off the road ?
stephenn wrote:
.... I think what you meant to say is you think drivers loss of control is the chief cause of spinning off the road...
It is never good practice to say what you think others meant to say.
stephenn wrote:
.... I think what you meant to say is you think drivers loss of control is the chief cause of spinning off the road...
No not in the slightest, the cause is earlier. The causes of spinning off the road, are varied :
1) human error - failure to observe, consider, or anticipate properly - often documented as 'failure to look'
2) deliberate, to avoid unforeseen, unexpected, unanticipated events - best course to avoid collision
3) mechanical defect / road defect
4) (some will say bad road design), this won't help but a good driver will cope and be aware of the potential dangers. Improvements to road layout and design will help prevent accidents/ incidents of course.

stephenn wrote:(If you use the 'Quote' under the post that will auto quote) See viewtopic.php?p=193671#p193671)
stephenn wrote:
Hi performance for speed means you can dial in the momentum at extraordinary rates (the driver will testify to this... will be pinned back in seat as car is first to have momentum transfered... the internal organs will be pinned back in the body as the body is ahead of these to have the momentum transferred)....
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
In fact the organs are the last to react not first being the third injury in accidents.
think that is same... vehicle ahead of body, body ahead of organs....transfer of momentum order constant, but obviously pinned back or forwards on acceleration, decelleration respectively....Agreed on something regarding momentum? :)[/quote]The itilised section implies that you think that the
stephenn wrote:
body is ahead
? still as long as you understand that the car takes the brunt of the impact then the person (and other items etc) impact and then the organs, that's fine. :)
BTW I have never said that momentum doesn't exist! It does obviously, but just that it isn't IMHO a good way to help people understand about how to driver better. It will distract people away from the 'how to better' your very driving / riding conversations that you really want to talk about.
After experiencing too many years of non-sense propaganda, I think that it is high time for direct, straight talking. We always try to seek the truth here, and when the true causes of accidents/incidents has tried to be dumbed down, to just 'speed' by 'others', it is therefor disheartening to see you replicate a potentially good opportunity, with a questionable title, that is quite.
This conversation is about whether "momentum exists" is a good concept, to open a debate about driving with the general populous but I have yet to be convinced.
stephenn wrote:
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
Ah well here in lies the heart of your concept. Yes, it is beyond most people interest. They may understand the facts when explained but not relate it or remember it's significance when actually driving to the shops or to work
This goes as an education strategy challenge... end result unverified.
Just because a scientific base may help someone to travel through an average speed camera checked area more precisely does not mean that they are a 'safer' or 'worse' driver. It just means that they were able to manage the concept better. They might still have travelled unsafely and badly, but lets say they didn't do that, that they did travel safely and well, what made them 'good', the science or other factors.

Put another way - what are the critical points of good safe driving/riding that you wish to tell others, or have them talk about ?
stephenn wrote:
... expect people who do road safety for a living would be fluent in and able to distribute that /those messeges, with continuous good effect.
If the authorities were doing the best job, then you would not feel the need to get involved - surely?

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 29, 2012 22:45 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
.
The crucial point here isn't the physics but the way in which the person failed to read the road and 'turn a bit sharpish' in the first place. So if I was sitting in the vehicle and discussing it the conversation to help would not be about the physics involved but their failure to observe, consider, anticipate ... and perhaps about skid control had things gone from bad to worse.


And in short ,it's all about educating drivers to
1) learn to read the road
2) be aware of what can go wrong if other factors get involved .
3) learn about skid control ,if things go bad .

But in todays perfect world ,all that is covered by "don't exceed the limit" on a stick by the side of the road .No mention of that large vehicle coming round a corner and taking up most of the road ,or a line of cars obscuring some kid about to run out (though good training would educate the driver to be at a slow speed and loking out for little legs viewed under cars) .Or - other factors like the road is shielded from the sun ,and might still be icy after a hard frost . OR ........................
THE dozens of other reasons, learnt from experience ,passed down through the old fashioned system of teaching the kids -( or being stopped by an old fashioned BIB traffic bloke , whose seen all those little indiscretions and although you're not a total danger ,decides to do some road safety education-whoops -sorry -these blokes don't really exist now -cameras can do that :shock: :shock: ) . .It's all about passing a test - not about LEARNING TO DRIVE .

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 13:43 
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botach wrote:
SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
.
The crucial point here isn't the physics but the way in which the person failed to read the road and 'turn a bit sharpish' in the first place. So if I was sitting in the vehicle and discussing it the conversation to help would not be about the physics involved but their failure to observe, consider, anticipate ... and perhaps about skid control had things gone from bad to worse.


And in short ,it's all about educating drivers to
1) learn to read the road
2) be aware of what can go wrong if other factors get involved .
3) learn about skid control ,if things go bad .

But in todays perfect world ,all that is covered by "don't exceed the limit" on a stick by the side of the road .No mention of that large vehicle coming round a corner and taking up most of the road ,or a line of cars obscuring some kid about to run out (though good training would educate the driver to be at a slow speed and loking out for little legs viewed under cars) .Or - other factors like the road is shielded from the sun ,and might still be icy after a hard frost . OR ........................
THE dozens of other reasons, learnt from experience ,passed down through the old fashioned system of teaching the kids -( or being stopped by an old fashioned BIB traffic bloke , whose seen all those little indiscretions and although you're not a total danger ,decides to do some road safety education-whoops -sorry -these blokes don't really exist now -cameras can do that :shock: :shock: ) . .It's all about passing a test - not about LEARNING TO DRIVE .


Botach you are spot on there. When I was learning to drive I was fortunate to have had an ex Hendon police instructor as my instuctor. The one thing that was alway being drummed into me was, "think of whats around you and everything that could happen and allow for it. If you have to do an emergency stop, then you have failed to do this". Having passed my test first time I was then told "right you have learnt to pass your test now go out and learn to drive". I am still feel very indepted to this guy for what he taught me early on, started my interest and enjoyment of driving and has kept me safe over the last 52 years .


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 16:58 
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I too, was taught to look on every other car around you as if it was driven by a homicidal maniac out to get you (in other words observe everything that everyone around you does and don't assume anything) this has helped me no-end through the years, with the ocassional one who has decided to veer in my direction or pull out in front of me at the last moment but I do wonder how many inexperienced drivers out there, spend so much time observing the speedo and the road immediately in front of them, perhaps spending to much time looking for speed cameras or changes in speed limits and miss the real dangers on the road until it is too late.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 17:35 
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Well given what I saw is being asked of new drivers in the Highway Code in order to pass a driving test theory, (according to Top Gear last night), it’s almost as if they are deliberately trying to fill the book with nonsense or the bl :censored: 'in obvious. Some picture of yellow zigzag within which is written ‘SCHOOL’. The question being why shouldn’t you park there.

I mean, quite honestly, if they have to ask a question like that the candidate probably wouldn’t get his own name right either :doh: JC said there’s loads more daft obvious questions like it apparently - and stupid ambiguous ones I wouldn't get...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 18:41 
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I've just run through this official practice test and although the questions in the main seemed reasonable, I was a little alarmed that not many road signs were expected to be known...is there a seperate test on these or are they still part of the practical test that we used to take?

http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/Diol1/DoItO ... DG_4017669

I managed to pass both but with a pass rate of needing 43 out of 50 there isn't much margin for error. I got 48 and 47 but admit to guessing a couple of the answers (like how far away to position a warning triangle), which I don't know if I got right or not but probably didn't as I obviously got a few wrong.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 21:55 
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whynot wrote:
, started my interest and enjoyment of driving and has kept me safe over the last 52 years .

Whew- look like it's oldies day out - you on 52 years ,me on 45 ,and graball as the kiddie on 36 .But the standards didn't drop for a lot later .

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 22:27 
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I started driving in 1973 so coming up for my 39th year soon...;-)

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 30, 2012 23:25 
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graball wrote:
I started driving in 1973 so coming up for my 39th year soon...;-)

Whoops- time to update the sig ,then .Me- coming up for 45 th ,very soon .Now getting into my Flatcap yers . :D

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 31, 2012 00:49 
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botach wrote:
graball wrote:
I started driving in 1973 so coming up for my 39th year soon...;-)

Whoops- time to update the sig ,then .Me- coming up for 45 th ,very soon .Now getting into my Flatcap yers . :D


Age is just numbers, you are only as old as you feel, and thats b...dy old sometimes :lol:


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