Safe Speed Forums

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/england/4265348.stm



Surly they are missing the point AGAIN ... so whats new

My idea...
Maybe these courses should be available to every one but be worth -2 points on your licence. So if you are up for 6 points it would reduce to 4.
3 points reduced to 1.

Those who break the limit by a wide margin are those who would most likley benifit from the course.

those who continuously get caught by a small margin would get fed up of attending the course . It could be restricted to once per person per year.


It would be offered in the court as well as in place of the fixed penalty

I agree they're missing the point with these courses.

The people who really need to go on them aren't offered a place

Personally I feel (in conjunction with the 2,3 & 6 pt fixed penalties) a course should be offered in lieu of ANY 2 or 3 pt penalty, regardless of speed, class of road etc - 1 course allowed in 3 years.

Crucially, course should be allowed on a 6 pt penalty, which would then be reduced to a "standard" 3pt/£60.

Let the Scamerati prove they are interested in education and introduce this prompto

I pointed this out to TVP when they were trialling Drive Tech courses - only for people pinged in 30 zones and only for speeds between 31 and 39mph (IIRC). And yes, that does indeed mean that the usual 10%+2 threshold was chucked out the window! But what really got up my nose was that drivers doing 40+, who are supposedly the more dangerous, were not offered the option of a course. To my mind that flew in the face of what they were claiming - either faster = more dangerous = more in need of a course or it doesn't. If it does then they've been offering courses to the wrong group of drivers. If it doesn't the whole policy comes apart at the seams.


Or even compulsory?

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

These speed awareness courses that are offered to drivers under 40mph are just another way of revenue generating if you ask me. As said they should be targeting the high speed merchants who think they can drive they should be given the option to say drive at a certain standard set down on the course if they can and pass then reduce there points and up there fine if caught again within a certain period of time then they get whatever punishment that is being handed out.
Stephen

Whilst I agree that some forces are using this as a money raising excersise or a glib press excersise, the £65 fee is the lowest I have seen yet. I read that they were dooing 500 a month (but those stats have disapeared from the bbc news story?)

I give some credit to Northumbria. Better than the scroats where I live.

The Thames Valley scheme was sixty quid, and all credit to them for making the price the same as the FPN alternative - no excuse that it's cheaper to take the points then. Still doesn't help that it was aimed at the wrong drivers, or that they were pinging at as low as 31 for this.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

This is what worries me. I think they will use it as an excuse to drop the limits in pinging. That way they will not reduce SCP income.

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Speed camera policy Kills

In fairness I think it might not be an income saver for them. I'd have thought Drive Tech courses cost more than 60 quid a head so it might even have been costing the pratnership money. Of course, that could have meant that they'd have had to make it up elsewhere. What annoyed me about it was that if you got pinged at 31-34mph and refused the course you would have then got the usual 3 points and £60 fine. Since normally you would not have even been pinged at those speeds IMO it was zero tolerance by the back door.

I'm not sure that the TVP scheme is still running by the way.

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I was not offered the opportunity to do this, despite doing 37 in a 30. I later read it was only offered to those caught doing 35 or 36. Those doing 34 or less weren't prosecuted. If I'd have been offered it, I would have taken it instead of going to court. Obviously though, my speed was excessive.

I'm sure I read somewhere in one report (I think it was a TRL report) that it was of equal benefit to those who slightly or severely exceeded the speed limit. I think that was based on re-offending rate, i.e. something like number of people attending the course being scammed in the next 12 months.

Gizmo Posted:

This is what worries me. I think they will use it as an excuse to drop the limits in pinging. That way they will not reduce SCP income.

that is a worrying thought, i believe the scp i am in is one of the better ones in the country with regard to the way we operate

when you start talking about improvership courses for 31mph that is in my opinion starting distract from the task at hand

ps i suppose these courses will be contracted out, to ex driving school staff no doubt

As we have posted - Mad Doc and self wil agree that the Lnacs course is excellent and worthy of applause.

However, I do join the Mad Cats in their criticism. We do not criticise the course itself as it really is superb. However, by inviting marginals of 33-35mph at £90 per time - it really does lay itself open to negative criticism and this undermines eaxctly what they seek to achieve.

If they stuck to revised guidelines of 10%+5 across limilt range - then one could find a real difficulty in negative criticism. But invites of 33 mph in a 30 mph zone really undermines a very laudable and worthwhile project.

In essence difficult to fault the Lancs course on offer - teaches COAST, does not focus on speed and is common sense. Only area where it can be faulted - invites blippers and thus wrong target to improve.

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

I think it's a ridiculous idea giving speed awareness training to people doing 31mph. How anyone can be expected to drive safely at that level of required accuracy is beyond me.

You'd have to be almost permanently looking at your speedo - or drive at 25mph, and given that they stick 30mph limits on 60ft wide straight dual carriageways in the middle of nowhere nowadays it's not really an option.

Just another money making scam dressed up as as a safety benefit.

If you refuse the SAC at 31, would you get 3pts/£60? How are they allowed to do this given it's in breach of ACPO prosecution guidelines?

I agree totallly with you that speeds of 35 or 6 is generating money. However as you say ACPO guidelines are as they say and only guidelines you don't have to adheer to them if it doesnt suit, which I think is happening in places like Lancashire and cheshire, I mean are they right or are we wrong who knows. I suppose it is done in the best of spirit.
Stephen

Missed this while too busy to visit the forums, and only now catching up.

I asked TVP specifically if refusing the course having been pinged at 31 would mean the driver would get an FPN instead and they said yes. I don't know how it was justified re the ACPO guidelines as I forgot to ask

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Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein

I would obviously take the course if offered but god knows how I'd be able to contain myself.

I suspect I may be asked to satnd on the naughty step!

Friend of my went on a course and was told that nobody was allowed to ask questions or make comments on the content or they would revert to the FPN. How democratic and honest is that?

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Shooting is good for you and too good for some people.

The only way I see the offer of attending one of these courses is a way of justifying them taking their £65 off you, yet making you feel better because you don’t get the three points on your licence. It’s a climb down by the SCP’s without admitting to it.

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Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

So not only do 'civilian' talivanners catch you....and admin clerk processes you're NIP....but now some trainer of dubious pedigree assesses your attitude and can send you out if deemed to be naughty!

Asking questions is a fundamental part of the learning process!

This was a good opportunity to get drivers into a classroom and provide them with some useful information on driving more safely.

However, according to people that have been on these courses, they are simply fed "speed kills" propaganda, the same (flawed) statistics that they've heard a hundred times already and aren't given any useful new information at all.

In other words, it's a pure PR exercise. Another opportunity squandered.

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

I feel this is an important point which should be revisited; perhaps SafeSpeed should investigate further and release a PR?

Issues of income generation aside, I should point out the accuracy of the LTI Ultralyte speedmeters:



This would mean that a driver who is legally at the limit could be measured to be 1mph over, hence they can be penalised by being forced to spend time and money to attend the course or else receive an FPN if they can’t attend.

Surely this is solid ground for an unsafe conviction? I wonder what the outcome would be if someone fought a case on this basis?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign