Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Sun Feb 16, 2020 20:04

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 
Author Message
PostPosted: Fri May 21, 2004 22:33 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
A note of caution on the topic of retesting which has been extensively discussed in another thread.

We need to be very careful about proposing anything that, either due to expense or difficulty, would have the effect of significantly reducing the overall level of participation in driving. What matters is not what people in theory can do, but what in practice they actually do do.

The lower the proportion of the population with driving licences, the easier it will be for the authorities to impose new restrictions on drivers. Currently the fact that a large majority of adults do drive is a major safeguard against excessively strict or unreasonable regulation. The idea that fewer, better-trained drivers would be given more freedoms flies in the face of experience. Look, for example, at what has happened to gun-owners. Driving, ultimately, enjoys some measure of protection from official restraint as it is perceived as a "democratic" activity.

Cutting the proportion of drivers would be playing into the hands of the anti-car lobby by producing the "modal shift" that they wish for.

Also it doesn't necessarily follow that reducing the number of drivers will reduce casualties, as what you are doing is changing the mix between motor vehicles and other modes, which are often more dangerous per mile travelled. In the 1920s we killed 5,000 a year on the roads with half a million motor vehicles.

Regards,

Peter

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 00:06 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 21:41
Posts: 3608
Location: North West
PeterE wrote:
A note of caution on the topic of retesting which has been extensively discussed in another thread.

We need to be very careful about proposing anything that, either due to expense or difficulty, would have the effect of significantly reducing the overall level of participation in driving. What matters is not what people in theory can do, but what in practice they actually do do.


Germany, Austria, Switzerland (France in process of tightening up) - more stringent testing has not reduced numbers of learners on their roads. Has to be said, though, that statistically - they have worse levels of RTAs than here - but then - according to reports in French newspapers - KSIs have been down to high alcohol levels (all that wine), non-wearing of seat belts, absolute colour-blindedness at traffic lights, zebras (BOF!) - speed coming lastly on their causation. Gather from report in "France-Soir" that they have increased gendarme and flic presence by 50% to crack down on these, and have installed 1000 fixed scams to back them up!

Austria, Switzerland? Mountains and ice! Drink! Seat belts! Vienna, Innsbruck, Basel, Zurich, Berne - all have severe drink/ drugs problems as well - per their newspaper reports. (But Wildy tends to get "le matin", and "Bild", and some other highly colourful rag sent to her!)

Germany - well they blame the Ossies, those Stasis who learned their "skills" in Trabis, and the dodgy roads there for their dodgier stats! Also seamier side of Hamburg, Berlin, Frankfurt... drugs, drink etc. Rhine/Ruhr - heavily congested - so more hazards and thus more crunches!

But even so - with our superb roads on aggregate - German style/standard testing would be good thing for UK!

PeterE wrote:
The lower the proportion of the population with driving licences, the easier it will be for the authorities to impose new restrictions on drivers. Currently the fact that a large majority of adults do drive is a major safeguard against excessively strict or unreasonable regulation. The idea that fewer, better-trained drivers would be given more freedoms flies in the face of experience. Look, for example, at what has happened to gun-owners. Driving, ultimately, enjoys some measure of protection from official restraint as it is perceived as a "democratic" activity.


Trouble is Peter - we have gov of car haters with too large a majority - casued probably by our own apathy - and we are too suspicious about their motives for the postal vote - this mob have been caught out in too many fibs and fiddles that we see postal vote as being "able to be manipulated"

Guns? Problems possibly due to poor and inadequate policing and licencing - also concentration on middle class crims in theri caars instead of Kray twin types!

Know what you mean though. Many who practise this as sport at Olympic standards have been hit with reams of paperwork for special licences. And those who collect and display only had to hand certain rare types over for destruction.

In Switzerland - you have to keep a weapon in the house by law. So majority owns gun. Has not led to mass shoot-outs - even in its seedier areas - but then race is generally disciplined per stereotype. (Protecting its gold from EU - according to WildCat! :wink: ) But then - all males are trained soldiers - all Wildy's brothers and male cousins were conscripted! The girls showed moral support by way of community service!) Even the tunnels are mined to prevent access to the gold vaults!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 01:05 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
Mad Moggie wrote:
Germany, Austria, Switzerland (France in process of tightening up) - more stringent testing has not reduced numbers of learners on their roads.

Do they actually have some form of retesting or just more stringent initial testing?

Please bear in mind I'm not arguing against retesting as such, but merely pointing out that anything that in practice had the effect of reducing the level of driving participation could have unforeseen consequences.

Regards,

Peter

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 01:23 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Mon Mar 08, 2004 21:41
Posts: 3608
Location: North West
Like UK at present - they order re-test for probationers who accumulate penalties under totting up procedures. Germany etc still two years, but likely to follow France and increase to three if newspaper reports and rumours are correct.

Like UK - courts order extremely tough retest if banned for dangerous, drunk etc. driving. They also have the Speed Awareness course and "What If " DVD game for speeders. "Marginals" - as I understand from the nerd is same as here - alternative and again - not nationwide as yet. DVD is Pfalz only so far.

Enforcement appears to be mix of responsibly sited (according to authorities :roll: ) scams, Smileys and good old fashioned cops - who are targetting all offences and not just speed. Unlike here - they are armed and not as likely to show same discretion :roll:

Switzerland is by far the worst scamwise! 3mph tolerance whether you are in 20mph or 80mph zone. Lot of accidents allegedly occur on wheely collect day! Because - they do like to hide their scams in wheelies! :twisted:

The Mad lad himself!


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 01:39 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member

Joined: Mon Mar 15, 2004 15:43
Posts: 2416
PeterE wrote:
Please bear in mind I'm not arguing against retesting as such, but merely pointing out that anything that in practice had the effect of reducing the level of driving participation could have unforeseen consequences.
Fair point, but many of the suggestions in the other thread seem aimed more at getting people to maintain or improve their standards rather than taking large numbers off the road (which is what the current 12 point ban system risks, albeit for short periods of time). If any retesting system came into being I think it should ideally aim to remove only the very worst drivers, and to reduce pressure on the system exempt the best from retesting. It should identify those who may have simply had a good day on their L test and slipped through the net, or who promptly forgot everything they learned before the ink dried on the pass certificate and allowed their skills to deteriorate. Those who are maintaining or improving their standard of driving certainly shouldn't be targetted just so the powers that be can fill the buses and trains up. I don't think even the most anti-car government would allow that to happen anyway - all that lovely revenue from motoring taxes <sniff> gone forever <sniff>. :)

_________________
Make everything as simple as possible, but not simpler - Einstein


Top
 Profile  
 
PostPosted: Sat May 22, 2004 02:55 
Offline
Site Admin
User avatar

Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
PeterE wrote:
A note of caution on the topic of retesting which has been extensively discussed in another thread.

We need to be very careful about proposing anything that, either due to expense or difficulty, would have the effect of significantly reducing the overall level of participation in driving. What matters is not what people in theory can do, but what in practice they actually do do.


Yes. We also need to be concerned with net benefit. Here's a theoretical curve of risk and driver quality:

Image

There's little point in retesting the folk above about the 30th percentile for the following reasons:

1) We have a chance of motivating them to get further training
2) They aren't so bad anyway
3) The real problems are at the low end, and we can get them retrained when they crash or when they violate
4) Above the 50th percentile of driver quality we have many many drivers who will never be involved in an injury accident in a lifetime. We can't reduce their accident risk below that number!

Note, however, we don't really know the shape of the red crash risk curve. The curve shown is little more than guesswork, although a recent report from fleet driver training attributed 45% of all accidents in a 12 month period to 5% of the drivers. Astonishingly, there's very little research in this area, and the only people who really know are the insurance companies. Unfortunately, the insurance companies consider their data to be commercially sensitive and won't share it. Believe me I've tried.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


Top
 Profile  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 6 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 5 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.322s | 13 Queries | GZIP : Off ]