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PostPosted: Sat Jun 26, 2004 23:56 
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There's a lot of talk here about centalising computer information between DVLA, insurance companies etc. which makes perfect sense.

How about this, when we buy a tax disk we get issued with a plastic card containing a chip which has all the linked details. In order to buy fuel we have to put the card in a slot at the pump, where the data on file verifies that the car is MOTd, insured, taxed, not reported stolen etc etc. Imagine that the registration number of the car has already been scanned with optical recognition technology as it enters the filling station.

Only when everything matches up can we buy fuel.

The cost of modifying the pumps and installing the number plate readers could be paid for by the oil companies, as there would be no incidents where a driver would leave without paying therefore giving the oil company a saving.

Science fiction maybe but not beyond possibility?


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 00:09 
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Sorry this was meant to be a reply in earlier thread, not a new topic.

Ric.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 08:24 
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Ric wrote:
Science fiction maybe but not beyond possibility?


I take it you don't work in IT then? :roll:

Getting such a system to work reliably and fraud free would be virtually impossible and cost an absolute fortune. It would certainly cost far more to run (never mind the setup costs) than the oil companies lose in stolen fuel.

Look at the DVLA database. They can't even keep that accurate as it is, what hope for a far more complex system.


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PostPosted: Sun Jun 27, 2004 10:57 
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Surely the solution to uninsured drivers is the same as the solution to tax evaders.

If you come up with a system where the incentive to evade (or drive uninsured) is low - then you will automatically reduce the numbers.

Logically this leads us to the perception of being caught. If even the perceived chance of being caught is high then numbers will tumble. And only way I know to catch such people would be for trafpol to pull them.

You will never eradicate it completely, but you could lower it substantially with proper enforcement.

Any IT based system is doomed to failure. The Government's record on big IT systems is laughable. There would also be severe privacy concernes with such a system too.


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 19:20 
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Ric wrote:
when we buy a tax disk we get issued with a plastic card containing a chip which has all the linked details. In order to buy fuel we have to put the card in a slot at the pump, where the data on file verifies that the car is MOTd, insured, taxed, not reported stolen etc etc.


I'm all in favour of anything reasonable that cuts uninsured drivers. One problem with this is that the road traffic act requires drivers to have policies to use cars; thus the driver is insured. No car needs to be insured by law.

With this in mind, how would your scheme work?

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 02, 2004 19:23 
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President Gas wrote:
And only way I know to catch such people would be for trafpol to pull them.


Better to use robots - trafpols need to eat which costs tax money.

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 03, 2004 01:16 
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basingwerk wrote:
President Gas wrote:
And only way I know to catch such people would be for trafpol to pull them.


Better to use robots - trafpols need to eat which costs tax money.
No offence, but I'm not sure if you're being serious there. Assuming you are, how close are we to having robots that can take over all the duties of trafplods? I mean, if it's several decades away I say let's stick with what works now, and build a big, big donut factory. :) (Sorry InGear, couldn't resist :twisted: ).

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 Post subject: INSURANCE
PostPosted: Mon Jul 05, 2004 19:04 
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Hi all,

To get road tax you need insurance and MOT cert. Why don't the insurance companies do the same and not offer insurance until you have the MOT and tax. Kina vice versa to the subject but still a consideration.

Once the insurance is issued, a tax disc like window sticker should be issued by the insurance company, although each one would need to be unique to avoid fraud unlike tax disc which is only one colour or hologram for every car.

Andrew


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 Post subject: Re: INSURANCE
PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 09:21 
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andys280176 wrote:
Hi all,

To get road tax you need insurance and MOT cert. Why don't the insurance companies do the same and not offer insurance until you have the MOT and tax. Kina vice versa to the subject but still a consideration


The old deadlock problem would happen if I had a car on which the MOT, insurance and tax have all expired because I've been working in Canada for nine months. I could get an MOT. I can't get insurance because it has no tax, and I can't get it taxed because it has no insurance. One way to prevent deadlock if to acquire the resources in a fixed order, e.g. MOT, Insurance and Tax , where you only need the things before to get each new thing. So you could make insurance depend on MOT, if you like, and still not get deadlock.

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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 09:30 
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The only way to completely eliminate the problem is to find some way of immobilising vehicles unless either it or the driver are insured.
If the thing will move and some oxygen thief can buy it for £50 or steal it we'll have unisured drivers on our roads. Period.
Of course, we could always find some way of eliminating the oxygen thieves.....


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PostPosted: Tue Jul 06, 2004 09:40 
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Gatsobait wrote:
Better to use robots - trafpols need to eat which costs tax money.
No offence, but I'm not sure if you're being serious there. [/quote]

No offence - I'm not talking about robocop here. I'm talking about automatic monitoring and detection. The basic idea would be to have a database of drivers and their insurance rights, and a device in each car that identifies through biometric means the driver of the vehicle and transmits it to roadside transponders, that cross checks the car plate against the driver rights and sees if insurance is in force. If not, a lookup is done to see if the offender has history, or is not in the system. If that isn't the case, consider it a misdemeanor and mail a summons through the post. If the offender has history, or is not in the system, post a network alert to the nearest trafpol to pull over and arrest driver and treat them harshly. So what I am saying is that we should look at automatic control and computerization to take all the leg work out of it, and just let the coppers deal with the hard cases.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 00:35 
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Gatsobait wrote:
I mean, if it's several decades away I say let's stick with what works now, and build a big, big donut factory. :) (Sorry InGear, couldn't resist :twisted: ).



Yum! Now you're talkin'!


Love them all! Jam ones, round ones for dunking, lightly dipped in choccy! Yum! :lol: :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 00:41 
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basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
Better to use robots - trafpols need to eat which costs tax money.
No offence, but I'm not sure if you're being serious there

No offence - I'm not talking about robocop here. I'm talking about automatic monitoring and detection. The basic idea would be to have a database of drivers and their insurance rights, and a device in each car that identifies through biometric means the driver of the vehicle and transmits it to roadside transponders, that cross checks the car plate against the driver rights and sees if insurance is in force. If not, a lookup is done to see if the offender has history, or is not in the system. If that isn't the case, consider it a misdemeanor and mail a summons through the post. If the offender has history, or is not in the system, post a network alert to the nearest trafpol to pull over and arrest driver and treat them harshly. So what I am saying is that we should look at automatic control and computerization to take all the leg work out of it, and just let the coppers deal with the hard cases.



Um! What about hire cars and courtesy cars and biometric means?

And this family are insured to drive each other's cars as well as their own!

Would not really be that easy to administrate. And we could get called to a false call - thus wasting our time! Computers are not that reliable - you know!

There is no easy solution - but a disc is step in correct direction and ANPR at petrol stations would help us track and trace more quickly - as all cars need diesel or petrol! :wink:


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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 09:36 
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Gatsobait wrote:
Um! What about hire cars and courtesy cars and biometric means?


No problem. The biometric would identify the driver. Next time you pass an Automatic Plate Recognition System, the car would tell the sensor who is driving it. The computer would run the name against the driver/insurance rights database and get a hit if there is a discrepancy. If the car or driver is on a watch list, send a network request to a cop car to hunt it down, else just pop a summons in the post. No problem.

Gatsobait wrote:
And this family are insured to drive each other's cars as well as their own!


Same applies. No problem. The insurance database would list drivers and thier rights. So if a driver was insured to drive a specfic car or cars belonging to him or (say) a family member, and any car not belonging to him, that information would be incuded in the check. The database would not be key'd on plate, because the person is insured, not the car.

Gatsobait wrote:
Would not really be that easy to administrate. And we could get called to a false call - thus wasting our time! Computers are not that reliable - you know!


There would need to be systematic cooperation between the camera owners, the DVLA, the insrance companies and the cops. I don't think these stakeholders talk to each other yet.

I once maintained system for the Canadian Space Agenecy that ran satellite passes. It ran 24 hours a day for 9 years and never missed a single pass. So proper systems are robust. But many of our goverment offices are run by second class administrators. That needs changing for many reasons. As I say, for cars or drivers that are not on a watch list, just pop a summons in the post. You would get the odd false call, but the system could be improved to reduce that rate to the minimum possible, and anyway, you would be getting a lot more strategic hits.

Gatsobait wrote:
There is no easy solution - but a disc is step in correct direction and ANPR at petrol stations would help us track and trace more quickly - as all cars need diesel or petrol! :wink:


Right on - this ANPR idea seems good to me. It embodies some of the database/plate recogntion and takes us some of the way to a good solution.

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 07, 2004 13:02 
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All my comments above are totally false. It was In Gear who said those things, not GatsoBait!

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PostPosted: Thu Jul 08, 2004 00:41 
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basingwerk wrote:
Gatsobait wrote:
Would not really be that easy to administrate. And we could get called to a false call - thus wasting our time! Computers are not that reliable - you know!


There would need to be systematic cooperation between the camera owners, the DVLA, the insrance companies and the cops. I don't think these stakeholders talk to each other yet.


And that my friend is nub of the problem! :roll:

basingwerk wrote:
I once maintained system for the Canadian Space Agenecy that ran satellite passes. It ran 24 hours a day for 9 years and never missed a single pass. So proper systems are robust. But many of our goverment offices are run by second class administrators. That needs changing for many reasons.


If only we could get the staff! :wink: They are definitely second class!


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