Safe Speed Forums

In the light of thisstory, I was wondering if anyone has had experience of having to avoid a wagon toppling in front of them, or indeed driving a wagon as it topples?

It seems more common than it once was - but that could be better reporting, or simply a result of the volume of lorries on our roads. However, one or two wagons I have seen seem unduly tall and slender - perhaps increasing the risk?

If you are along side a wagon which starts to topple - what should you do? Speed up and pass, brake and drop back, or pull out and either of the above?
My own thoughts would be to drop back and allow the lorry driver the space in front AND alongside to try and recover, but is this the best course of action?

Presumably, lorry drivers must view certain stretches of road as presenting a higher risk - yet the sidewind warning sign does not seem as common as it is on the continent.
Do those drivers here know of black spots which are not signed?

Over to you!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I have experience of a shed load. It didn't happen on the road though.

I was standing in our yard when my college drove past me with a load of round bales of hay. I stopped him to get some stuff I needed that was in the tractor he was driving and he drove off.

As he pulled away I heard a rustling and it started to get dark. I looked up to see the bales, stacked 3 high heading my way. The one on the top made a bee line for me and landed on my head that was by that time crushed against the hopper of the fertiliser spreader.

I tried to run away, but there was no where to go and tried to crouch down under the hopper but there wasn't time and they still bashed me about the legs as well as my head. There wasn't even time to swear.

There was a reasonably impressive amount of blood, along with 11 stiches to my eye brow and behind my ear and a fractured C7 vertibrae. Oh and 6 weeks of work.

Really when things start falling and your right by them, you had better hope what ever is heading your way is soft.

This nightmare is about the only one I haven't experienced, Thank God.
I have had steer axle blowouts x 2, trailer blowouts, slow speed jacknife, almost lost a load, despite one more strap than was normal, stuck in snow, had an argument with a fire engine, had a kid throw something at my windscreen, no damage apart from brown trouser syndrome.
Nearly been blown over though on the M180, only carrying 6 ton of cardboard, would have been OK if it had been a full weight load, got caught by the wind shear caused by the trees along the side of the motorway.
There are many and varied causes of rollovers, from the slow rollover, the fast rollover, load movement, blown tyres and of course the wind.
Then theres the liquid tanker rollover.
One suspect could well be the advent of air suspension, going round a roundabout, on steel suspension, you could feel the weight transfer on the 5th wheel, air absorbs that feeling, until it's too late to do anything about it, and over you go.
A fellow driver was going round a wide sweeping bend on the A15 at Elsham wold ind estate, carrying packs of scaffolding tubing, one of the packs decided to burst it's pack strapping, and over he went.
The story goes that he then phoned in and said that he had broken the door mirror, How'd you do that, The truck fell on it.
It took about 4 hours to pick up all the tubing.

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Semper in excreta, nur quantitat variat.

i almost had a rollover but managed to correct it. i did need a change of underwear when i felt the offside wheels lift off the ground though

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Richie

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At the redbridge end of the m271 I regularly see lorries go very light on the inside wheels as they exit the roundabout. so I dont overtake untill they start to streighten up. there have been 4+ roll-overs there.
there are some arrogants F*** W**ts who ger very impatient and cant wait 10 seconds.

the tarmac on the roundabout is knackered so they put a speed camera in instead......

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

As a HGV driver, would you prefer the driver of the vehicle in front of you where you can see him, or out of the way behind you?

Do you get any sort of instruction about handling a potential roll over, other than optimum loading?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

We had one just after christmas when a artic tried to turn around on a mini roundabout to get to the food wagon. The council had used those HUGE curved kerbs that you use in motorway service areas. He clipped it, carried on and the load slipped. It carried on over. The whole industrial estate was stuffed for about 3 hours.
I wouldnt want to be in any car under one of them.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Agreed - I saw one go over on the Lancaster north exit off the M6 - but in those accidents, it would be rare for a vehicle to be alongside for long (oncoming vehicles pass quickly).

I am more concerned when I see those very high narrow trailers on the motorway, when the wind seems likely to tip them and vehicles passing may be in the firing line.

What is the best defensive manouvre to avoid them?
Get in front, get behind, or pull out, and which would the HGV driver prefer - clear road ahead in which to manouvre, or other vehicles where he can see them?

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

to be honest, if i felt the wagon going over, i would be more concerned with trying to aim it as far left as possible but i dont think it will make a lot of difference. when its going, there isnt anything you can do about it (in an artic). your best chance (if you are next to one) is to either floor it or stop sharply. you would have to judge yourself depending on how far alongside you are. the truck wont be going any faster so if you are then you would be as well getting out of there.

i have seen a rollover once or twice. one that sticks was on the A34/M3 j9 roundabout. i was heading south on the A34 and saw the bottom of the truck staring at me. as i drove past, i saw what was left of a mondeo underneath the cab. i doubt anyone in the car would have survived
the only thing you can do is GET OUT THE WAY

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Richie

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i dont remember any actual training of any kind on this subject although the normal rules apply. read the road, know your load etc. i know some wagons roll over due to drivers cornering/turning sharply too fast and that is probably driver error ie not reading the road or approaching too fast. it seems simple enough to me with sharp turns. how sharp is it and what kind of camber is there? basic stuff.
on the other hand, there are the occasions where a gust of wind is enough to blow a truck over. look at the Irish driver who lost his life not that long ago. the authorities failed to close a bridge because the winds were not consistent enough to justify it. he goes over the bridge, an inconsistent gust of wind catches his artic and he loses his life at the bottom of a 100 foot drop

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Richie

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Nasty. I regularly run to Huntingdon with a trailer load of mattress foam, which weighs approximately bugger - all, and back to Birmingham with an empty trailer, and in a high wind it's a bit scary in either direction. Worse because you know there's not much you can do other than slow down, don't use the cruise control and remain alert.
To answer the original question, I don't think it'd make much difference if a car was in front or behind. Like Scanny says, once a wagon falls over it won't be accelerating any more! Just try and keep out from underneath. Also, give tankers and wagons with weight at the top of the load (eg flatbeds loaded with empty pallets, or hay lorries) plenty of space on roundabouts - their centre of gravity is somewhere around the top of the cab and if driven by an inexperienced driver or an imbecile, they can go over very easily.

Exiled?? What on earth did you do wrong?



You just answered another concern of mine!!

Depending on the road, I would be worried about being BEHIND an overturned vehicle, in case I got sandwiched by people coming up too fast!
I'm wracking my brains trying to remember which Courier company, and which retail chain uses these slender looking trailers, which seem very tall for their width. Nothing you have said fills me with confidence.

Of course we get a few winds around here - including a mini tornado around Tebay last week!!! I'll be extra careful when I see Tautliners with the sides rolled back - you never used to see them like that!!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

tip:
watch their curtains. it is the tautliners that will catch the wind purely because of the material sides. a box body will be affected but the sides dont curve in like a curtain will. if you see the curtains bending right in, that one is catching wind and probably fighting against it so if there is a sudden drop, the wagon will probably skip sideways a little as the driver corrects it.
this also shows that the trailer is likely to be empty, another factor which creates problem with wind. a full load has the weight to remain stable but an empty curtainsider is the most likely to be blown around although in high winds, the police will recommend tying curtains open whenever possible for this reason. you try telling the boss that though. last time i did it i got pulled up due to concerns about the legality of this practice. more importantly (to them), it was not advertising the company name. im sure seeing the company name on its side in a ditch will have the punters rolling in

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Richie

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My scariest drive in a tall vehicle was in about 1993, driving back from Glasgow to Stoke in a 6.5 Merc, sharing driving in very high winds.
My colleague drove to Carlisle and i took over til Stoke.

We passed a total of about 8/9 trucks on their side, plus another half dozen or so taking shelter (outside of service areas) where they could under bridges etc. Very scary feeling the RHS lift up with the gusts.
I recall one artic had gone up a small embankment, through a fence and 200m across a field to (successfully) avoid going over and another on the north bound carriageway with the chassis still on the northbound side, but the top of the body over on the outside lane of the southbound A74

I now also look at the tautliners to see how strong the wind is.

Have a look at the axles too. If one of them is off the road (usually the middle axle on the tractor unit) that's a sign that the trailer is empty or lightly loaded and hence more likely to be blown about. If all of them are off the road it's already blown over

Ernest,

I live near the Tesco depot at Nursling and have seen an increasing number of these 'double-height' trailers in and out recently. They run on really small wheels and the floor of the trailer looks like it is level with the axle centres, rather than above the wheels.
Knowing how much packaging the supermarkets use I guess these trailers are nowhere near the 44tonne limit so I will make sure I am extra wary about driving round one of these trucks, especially if it is a bit windy.

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The police ARE the law, not ABOVE it!!!

Like this???


Doesnt look like it would do the paintwork any good either!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Thinking about it, I think these are trailers specially built for bulky, but light, parcels and have a 2-level load bay to improve carrying efficiency; where very few boxes can be stacked on top of each other, they give an extra floor.
I would imagine the centre of gravity is quite high.

Regardless of the centre of gravity, does the area they present to the wind, and the width of the axles mean they are more at risk?
Also, nobody has commented on whether more lorries go over, but looking at some Freight Transport Association data, the number of lorries has soared, so that could be the cause of the illusion.

When I was little (a long time ago now!) it was Hay lorries which had the reputation of being unstable - now it sems just about anything blows over at the drop of a hat!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

unfortunately, this is down to demand from hauliers. a quick run down in simple terms:
1 truck makes £1000 but costs £500 to make that money
2 trucks make £2000 but cost £1000 to run
how can we increase the profit and reduce the costs?
make 1 truck HIGHER therefore the cost is still only £500 but now it can carry £2000 worth of goods

trailer manufacturers are coming up with all sorts of thing these days. one being double deckers which basically means the trailer has a moveable floor in it which can be moved up or down to accommodate different load sizes. the weight restrictions are the same but it can now carry twice the load without the additional costs.
unfortunately, this means trailers become higher and present a greater risk in high winds. a bigger surface catches more wind.
from the bosses perspective, a bigger trailer means more profit. there may be increased risk involved but that is the drivers responsibility

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Richie

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