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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 19:24 
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Rigpig wrote:
basingwerk wrote:
Unfortunately, on our greedy and self obsessed little island, those days are gone, and we are left with a ME first generation of tailgaters, speeders and all manner of other impatient toe-rags.


Yeah well, I've made this (and/or similar points) in other threads but each time it's given a damned good ignoring. Most folks seem to find it easier to grab hold of a small issue and extrapolate it or nitpick it to death rather than face the fact that British society is precesiely as you paint it.


We can't separate it out can we? I think the sorts of road safety messages we're getting are making us selfish and impatient.

Isn't a growth in selfishness inevitably a consequence of the gradual removal of responsibilities from the individual towards the state? Instead of properly managing our own territory and resources, we tend to end up defending a load of false borders defined by the state. This style of behaviour applies to all limits including speed limits. I see a lot of demarkation and fierce defence. Hell, it's right here in this forum and this thread!

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PostPosted: Tue Sep 28, 2004 23:15 
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hasnt this been known about for ages? Isnt it the whole point of the signs on motorways.... ?

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 09:32 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
basingwerk wrote:
Unfortunately, on our greedy and self obsessed little island, those days are gone, and we are left with a ME first generation of tailgaters, speeders and all manner of other impatient toe-rags.


Yeah well, I've made this (and/or similar points) in other threads but each time it's given a damned good ignoring. Most folks seem to find it easier to grab hold of a small issue and extrapolate it or nitpick it to death rather than face the fact that British society is precesiely as you paint it.


We can't separate it out can we? I think the sorts of road safety messages we're getting are making us selfish and impatient.

Isn't a growth in selfishness inevitably a consequence of the gradual removal of responsibilities from the individual towards the state? Instead of properly managing our own territory and resources, we tend to end up defending a load of false borders defined by the state. This style of behaviour applies to all limits including speed limits. I see a lot of demarkation and fierce defence. Hell, it's right here in this forum and this thread!


Nice try Paul, but it runs a lot lot deeper than you suggest. My line of work sees me meeting and dealing with an awful lot of young people in their late teens and early twenties and believe me my friend they are completely different animals to what you or I were like at that age.
They live their lives to a completely different set of beliefs and standards the roots of which can be traced back to the Thatcher years when the Me First society was just in its infancy. They are the so-called Generation X and Ys.
It doesn't therefore take a great leap of imagination to see that the paradigm shift in attitudes that prevail today (versus 30 years ago) results in behaviour changes on the roads as much as anywhere else. Thus, the hysterical reaction to the enforcement of speed limits is perhaps an unsurprising function of the "I'll do what the hell I like" attitude that we have engeandered.
HOWEVER, as I said elsewhere - as a society we may be hell bent on self-destruction but repeatedly telling people they are, in effect stupid, begats belligerence rather than an "Oh yes of course you are right, silly me, I'll modify my behaviour immediately" reaction. We need to steer a slower and more steady course back towards a clamer more altruistic society - big clubs don't work.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 09:59 
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Rigpig wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
basingwerk wrote:
Unfortunately, on our greedy and self obsessed little island, those days are gone, and we are left with a ME first generation of tailgaters, speeders and all manner of other impatient toe-rags.


Yeah well, I've made this (and/or similar points) in other threads but each time it's given a damned good ignoring. Most folks seem to find it easier to grab hold of a small issue and extrapolate it or nitpick it to death rather than face the fact that British society is precesiely as you paint it.


We can't separate it out can we? I think the sorts of road safety messages we're getting are making us selfish and impatient.

Isn't a growth in selfishness inevitably a consequence of the gradual removal of responsibilities from the individual towards the state? Instead of properly managing our own territory and resources, we tend to end up defending a load of false borders defined by the state. This style of behaviour applies to all limits including speed limits. I see a lot of demarkation and fierce defence. Hell, it's right here in this forum and this thread!


Nice try Paul, but it runs a lot lot deeper than you suggest. My line of work sees me meeting and dealing with an awful lot of young people in their late teens and early twenties and believe me my friend they are completely different animals to what you or I were like at that age.
They live their lives to a completely different set of beliefs and standards the roots of which can be traced back to the Thatcher years when the Me First society was just in its infancy. They are the so-called Generation X and Ys.
It doesn't therefore take a great leap of imagination to see that the paradigm shift in attitudes that prevail today (versus 30 years ago) results in behaviour changes on the roads as much as anywhere else. Thus, the hysterical reaction to the enforcement of speed limits is perhaps an unsurprising function of the "I'll do what the hell I like" attitude that we have engeandered.
HOWEVER, as I said elsewhere - as a society we may be hell bent on self-destruction but repeatedly telling people they are, in effect stupid, begats belligerence rather than an "Oh yes of course you are right, silly me, I'll modify my behaviour immediately" reaction. We need to steer a slower and more steady course back towards a clamer more altruistic society - big clubs don't work.


I'm very happy to accept that we have wider social ills to address. If you want my uninformed opinion about the source of the trouble, I'd largely blame TV for illustrating idealised lifestyles that we tend to aspire to but can't afford. The weakest members of society are the most vulnerable to the resultant inequality between what they believe they deserve and what they can foresee achieving.

You're also absolutely correct to claim that the loss of trend in road safety could, in part, be due to wider social changes. We don't know - it's a question of judgement at present.

But, and there are two big buts:

1) We know that modern road safety policy has a range of negative side effects. Until they are quantified we can't answer the questions with authority and a precautionary principle should be applied.

2) We're not actually talking about wider social ills and the challenge becomes to improve road safety IN SPITE OF (any) wider social ills. We can and should still do that by positively working on road safety culture.

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 29, 2004 17:49 
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Rigpig wrote:
They live their lives to a completely different set of beliefs and standards the roots of which can be traced back to the Thatcher years when the Me First society was just in its infancy.
Perhaps, but what about the other big change in people's attitudes in recent years: It's Not My Fault. Couple that with the closely related attitude of Can We Sue Them For It and we have a steadily increasing number of people who seem to shirk any responsibility for their own well being. Or is that part of Me First?
Rigpig wrote:
We need to steer a slower and more steady course back towards a clamer more altruistic society - big clubs don't work.
You mean big clubs like several thousand speed cameras for indiscriminate hammering of anyone over the limit? :wink: :P Yeah, I'd go along with that. Applied to the roads it sounds like a good argument for better driver education.

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PostPosted: Thu Sep 30, 2004 10:31 
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Gatsobait wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
They live their lives to a completely different set of beliefs and standards the roots of which can be traced back to the Thatcher years when the Me First society was just in its infancy.
Perhaps, but what about the other big change in people's attitudes in recent years: It's Not My Fault. Couple that with the closely related attitude of Can We Sue Them For It and we have a steadily increasing number of people who seem to shirk any responsibility for their own well being. Or is that part of Me First?


It's all a part of the same ongoing corrosion in which people demand that their needs are serviced at the expense of others.


Gatsobait wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
We need to steer a slower and more steady course back towards a clamer more altruistic society - big clubs don't work.
You mean big clubs like several thousand speed cameras for indiscriminate hammering of anyone over the limit? :wink: :P Yeah, I'd go along with that. Applied to the roads it sounds like a good argument for better driver education.


Exactly. Whether or not people are stupid for driving too fast, feeding their kids the wrong food, overstretching themselves financially etc etc, they either don't think they are or can't see any other way of operating. Thus, speed cameras, finger wagging ministers etc get short shrift.


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 18, 2004 19:26 
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Yres - great idea - till "COATHANGER MAN/WOMAN" SEES that youve left a gap in front. Look what happens to the 2 sec gap - i call it my "granddaughter gap" - means that granddad dont run up the arse of him in front. try it on the m6 from j12 - j2 and "lane changer REP" WILL BE IN there faster than a ferret down a hole.
The problem is education/education and more education.
look at the problem when a lane/2 lanes of a mway are closed - we find the same idiots causing congestion by forcing in at the last minute -also happens on duals untill HGVs start blocking the outer lane off.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 10:14 
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I have got a few observations.....
1) Having done some work for the MOD in the past I found that they did a lot of work on convoy speeds. The found the optimun speed for a tightly packed convoy driving nose to tail is around 50 mph. Consequenty all vehicles had to be capable of this speed (including light tanks). Any faster than that you get a standing wave effect that slows traffic down.

2) When I drive south on the M1 there is a gradual migration from the middle lane to the fast lane. Cars start going faster but bunch up closer together using there brakes to adjust the speed all the time!. The result is a standing wave and stop-start driving whereas the middle and left hand lanes flow smoothly.

3) When driving in Germany they have motorway junctions that bottleneck from three lanes to two then back to three. Traffic merges and then splits freely. In road works traffic does the same. It is only here that you get cars charging down the outside to bully there way in at the last minute..the result...stopped traffic. This IS a British thing. How often do you see traffic driving down a lane motorway lane with flashing red lights on.. :x

4) I drive a lot in the US. I have not come accross the problem over there to the same extent it is here, There is less lane changing. If there is a car on the hard sholder traffic moves over to give it one lane safety zone. With 4 million miles of roads the traffic density is much less. Even in LA you just get in the lane you want and follow the flow. There seems to be more consistancy in the driving. They also tend to be more "law abiding" when it comes to lane use and at junctions (4 way stop). There are also hard sholders on both sides of the road so any accident in the fast lane can be cleared quickly.


In Britain conjestion is a culture thing. We create hold ups when there arn't any. The other day I was stuck behind a car in the middle lane of the motorway doing 45 mph. Trucks couldn't overtake so he was a rolling road block...madness. In the US they have "MINIMUM" speed limits on the interstates!

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 13:17 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
Yep Gizmo - would be a better idea on mways - minimum spped limit coupled with forced observance of distance between vehicles -trouble it would need traffic police to enforce it / educate the public -
"WHERE HAVE ALL THE TRAFFIC POLICE GONE" ETC
The other one on conjestion is summed up in a joke punchline -
"Take 2 British drivers and they form a q"


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 14:16 
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botach wrote:
"WHERE HAVE ALL THE TRAFFIC POLICE GONE"

Sound like the que for a song.....

Where have all the traffic police gone
A long time passing
Where have all the traffic police gone
A long ago
Where have all the traffic police gone
SCPs, they're picked up, every one
When will they ever learn
When will they ever learn

:lol:

(sung to the tune of WHERE HAVE ALL THE FLOWERS GONE by P. Seger)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 20, 2004 22:35 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
My sentiment exactly - Gizmo -- nice to know others share the same feelings(couldnt remember the tune)
perhaps the last line should take into account the fact that the scamera partnerships decided that they didn't earn any money!!!!

Now as to a quee - ONY TAKES 2 CARS IN THE UK


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 05:44 
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The lane swap attitude being described fits the Australian psyche as well and the resulting "wave effect" is also very commonplace on our motorways.

I learned road courtesy from the Germans and had it re-inforced by the English and Americans 15 years ago but from what you are describing you (and Australia) need to get lessons from the Germans and Americans.

We have variable limits on some motoways and they sort of work but it's difficult when no-one observes the 2 second rule and start lane hopping to gain one more car length.

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PostPosted: Mon Nov 22, 2004 15:14 
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Location: Treacletown ( just north of M6 J3),A MILE OR TWO PAST BEDROCK
well sung gizmo - pity we can't get the brass hats in the olice to sing from our songsheet too
:roll:


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