Safe Speed Forums

Musings on Highways Officers ...

I've seen these guys quite a lot over the last 12 months or so, and to honest they hadn't really made much of an impression on me - they weren't in my way, didn't really affect me, I wasn't bothered about them.

Driving with my wife this weekend she spotted one and mentioned that she liked the principle of having them on the roads. She drives about a quarter of the mileage I do, probably less than 5% of the motorway miles that I cover.

It sort of got me thinking, I actually HAD already formed an opinion subconsciously that I expected the occupants of the yellow and black cars to be wannabe coppers; her opinion was based on the couple of times that she had seen them, parked on the hard shoulder giving increased visibility to a broken down / stopped car (in one case, one of them was wearing a high viz jacket and waving cars to move out as the other one was helping the driver change a wheel on the drivers side).

Having mulled on this a bit, I think I need to change my opinion slightly ... but I still have reservations. I think giving them the checkerboard pattern on their 4x4's is a mistake - it seems like it is intended to make people think that they are traffic police, and this is dangerous on 2 counts - one it makes people think there are traffic police (when we know there are not enough) and two, some drivers can react badly when they see a police car. In addition, I think the uniform is far too close to a real police uniform (I've only seen a couple outside their smoked windows, I think the uniforms were blue with high viz vest).

I like the idea of a highway patrol doing things like removing obstructions and helping stranded motorists (looking at it from my wife's point of view, for example, if she ever broke down or holed a tyre, I'd be happier if they were going to roll up soon).

I just don't like this "wannabe copper" image that they have.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

I'm very worried about HATOs, for the reasons you mention and more besides...

- Is their training and experience really good enough to deliver safe behaviour in motorway situations? Personally I don't think it is.

- What future roles are they going to be asked to perform? 2nd class policing on the cheap, I'll wager. We're in a 'thin end of the wedge' situation.

- Will they be used progressively to get policing on the cheap, leading to lower average skills, lower average standards, and worst of all fewer real police in the medium term?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

hit the nail on the head there - I lit on the uniform and checkerboard markings specifically as I think if they drove about in head to toe hi-viz in highly marked (but not checkerboard ... maybe hi viz all over) transit vans then they would be less of an issue.

Having mused some more, I generally support the "idea" of PCSO's but again, there is a potential issue with them that people who would NOT be allowed to join the BiB see it as a way to get a uniform and swagger. Probably why they didn't make it into the police in the first place. Of course the other way to look at it is that we should ALL be PCS ... oooooh, social responsibility, that'll never catch on!

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Why do they need Range Rovers?

Wouldn't a nice two seat van at 1/8 of the price suffice?

It is our money after all.

I gather there is a similar thread on this over on PH SP&L. WIldy has already passed comment.

Basically she wants proper police and not "on the cheap with no clout to "get get the bad guys out there".

She mentioned First Aid based on her own personal experience that awful morning - and I will re-iterate here.. we owe one of the Cheshire Traffic Cops (one of the stars on that BBC prog) a hell of a debt which we can never repay... he kept her alive basically... and was a rock at that moment. The one who came to find me to break the awful news and take me to her.. so full of empathy and sympathy. He drove very skillfully at speeds I would normally enjoyed too. to get me to her. Stayed with me throughout and was just there supporting me far and above the call of his duties.

As for PCSOs and HATOs.. I have chatted to them when I've seen them on duty. Very genuine and concerned individuals who hope to "make a difference to our lives".

Their problem? They are like the supply teachers and classroom assistants in the schools.. in that they have zero powers to arrest or apprehend and the yobs do know it. I think they have an unnecessary hard time because of this. I also think theat the police do not deployu this resource as efficiently as they could do.. which also does not help anyone.

I do appreciate the individuals who sign up for this job.. but really I'd rather have proper policemen.

I will be fair .. in a rural area like ours.. they can get help relatively quickly. By and large - rural folk police themselves as well. Ours is a more ordered way of life and maybe why we are at some odds with the likes of an Eastender like spinny who is perhaps exposed to a city dregs which the Swiss and self in our rural retreats do not come across.

Sure.. we have the odd idiot and tourist .. but in rural Brumstromia, Lancs Hills, Cumbrian Fells, rural Northumberland, Borders, Co Durham, Yorks Dales, South Wales backwaters. .. and the rural Fens of the East.. where various family live .. we are aware of the tourists and we simply make those COAST defensive allowances for them.


But in the towns like Penrith.. Carlisle.. Preston/.. Lancaster.. Manchester.. I fear they are a dog unable to bark at felons.

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Given the number of times I've seen their range rovers parked on the hard shoulder with the front end pointing towards to motorway and the wheels turned to the right, I would be inclined to agree.

If they pointed towards the verge with the wheels to the left it means that if someone drives into the back of them, the vehicle will not be pushed into the traffic in L1, which is always a bonus.

If they really wanted to help those broken down, then they'd give them a bloody tow truck so that they can tow the unfortunates off of the motorway; the fact that so many people seem more concerned with the HATo as opposed to how they're driving on the motorway, gives the same effect as rubber-necker at a crash. Motorists see the blaze of flashing red lights, the cones etc and automatically believes that an accident has taken place; not so, it is unfortunately HATO and their over zealous approach to babysitting stranded drivers. If drivers break down, get out of the bloody car and stand away from the carriageway, traffic continues freely, there's no need for expensive labour with another set of control rooms and staff, nor do we have to put up with wannabee coppers who invariably will create more work for traffic plod than at present.

Secondly, I can assure you that they will over time be provided with 'extra' powers, especially when next year they branch out from motorways and are looking after trunk roads.

I have seen quite a few more in that position since your post, I wonder is it a training (lack of) issue?

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

Christ! What a shambles! If they are doing that en mass, then someone has told them to.

This is a case of a little knowledge being dangerous. Some research a few years back discovered that emergency services vehicles parked on hard shoulders and in live lanes had many fewer shunts if the vehicle was at an angle. The theory goes that a 'square on' vehicle is comparatively hard to distinguish from a moving vehicle, while one at an angle can be recognised as stationary.

But this technique certainly does not eliminate shunts and the opposite angle is a far better idea. As Lum says the last thing we want is them shooting off across the motorway when they get hit.

Question is, what are we going to do about it? I'll ring a couple of papers and see how it goes.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Yes, it's something I've been positively noting over the last few months. The "Plastic Police" have a depot just off the M6 junction a couple of miles from our house, so we see them practically every time we go up the motorway.

When I've seen them offering rich tea and sympathy to broken down drivers I've variously noted them as parking

* tucked in tight to the kerb,
* close to the line demarcating the carriageway
* close to the vehicle they are attending to
* a fair way back from the vehicle
* ALWAYS parallel to the traffic
* front wheels pointing inwards, straight, or outwards.

My conclusion is that either they have not been made aware of this issue, or they are just complacent about taking note of it. Perhaps if you spend a fair bit of your working life flitting up and down the hard shoulder you do get lax about it, but for my part if I were having to stop on the hard shoulder and then work 20 yards in front of my car [perhaps with my back to the traffic] I'd make damn sure my vehicle was pointing away from me in case it were struck.

That said, I'd also note that the Police are nearly as bad, though you do at least occasionally see them parking obliquely. But more often they parallel park - which can clearly be seen by the on-board footage shown on the "Police Camera" type TV shows. Do they do this so's their camera stays on the "target" vehicle? If so how about offsetting the camera?

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CSCP Latin for beginners...
Ticketo ergo sum : I scam therefore I am!

I've emailed Highays Agency and asked that they comment on this and suggested that SOP's be changed. I thought this would be more use that talking to the press, somehow. Any response I get, I'll ask if I can post it here.

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COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

That rather depends on how fast you want it changed. Letters will take months. The press can get it done in days. I've got a nice bite from a broadsheet too.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Probably lack of training or even common sense.

Perhaps my own common sense or even my training .. but always parked in a way to avoid any problem like this.

A lot of practical values are learned/advised as opposed to specifically skilled

But ... not bashing these people. I have engaged HATO/PCSO in normal chat as has Wildy and our older children. Most come across as decently concerned, polite, keen to make a "difference" and this does tend to thaw me and Wildy somewhat - but not overly bright which does worry me rather a lot.

I'd rather have a police offficer with some teeth than someone with good intentions but with zero powers. If they can report felons - even by our proxy ..fine and fair enoughski. .. but they have no canines or claws and the seriously illegal thug is more than aware of this..

But as Paul says.. you write letters or e-mail voicing concerns and it takes months

All we ask for in essence.. REAL POLICE and we really WANT and WILL PAY!

Cams are useless.. we all know this deep down. I'll bet even our spinny troll realises this deep down.. why else would he be so spiteful and
illogical in argument?


True road safety .... we need police and a firm educational programme based on the Speed Awares/DIS and the works of Peter Amey, Paul Ripley and Jonh Franklin who all penned the "-----CRAFT" series of excellence on our roads. All C O A S T BASED by the way

Not a figment of Swiss imagination.

Not something dreamed up by Paul Smith

Not something just promoted by Durham Police/North Yorks who report the lowest KSI in UK without pratnerships

Not something advocated by DIS/Speed Aware courses//

But ..
basic common sense value supported by all above who hold road safety for all close to hearts.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

And me ---

As found out yesterday on M1 south, between J12 and 11.

Driving south, from around J15, we got the message- for once the overhead gantries spat out the message "ACCIDENT J12 -11" --or was it cry wolf once more.

J12 - we got the lanes closed signs -so speed right down - 30/40 - i remember thinking "this is like russian roulette" "find the blockage" - especialy if it jumps out after a band of fog, and what happens if a car cuts in and slams them on with the road possibly damp/greasy.

What did we find - lots of ground based short distance lamps marking out the block, two 4x4 in L3 (HATO), one Astra (police ) parked in L2 ( NO lights)and the whole thing in about 50 yards.
Certainly no high profile advance warning - and to me the weather warranted it. Patchy fog, damp roads - and the HATO DEBATING GROUP sitting on the armco in L3 - or were they taking odds on how long before some pratt caused another accident??

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

There's definately a role for them but it needs to alter.

Give them all Transit crew cab Flatbeds, filled with plenty of cones, signs etc. They should carry basic fire fighting equipment and booms, granules etc for mopping up oil, chemical spills.

Ensure that at least one per vehicle has been trained to a high standard in first aid and before you know it you may have a fairly useful and effective team.

Rename them 'Traffic Management Operatives' no need for 'Officer' thanks

Oh yes....all vans BRIGHT YELLOW, on no 'uniform' a simple but practical dress of polo shirts, combat trousers etc should suffice so that you cannot mistake them for the police.

We'd better be careful what we say in case a bunch of angry (and possibly drunk) HA employees start posting here a la the PCSO thread.....

Perhaps it was a shock to the PCSOs to find out what some people really think about them. After all most of us would probably not take the chance of saying it to their face in the street as we don't seem to know just what their powers are - and neither do they.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

On the M42, i have seen HA parked on the 'police vehicles only' ramps just off the hard shoulder. Traffic slamming on brakes thinking 'speed trap', a good way of improving road safety. NOT.

Of course that won't happen when they are safely installed in their new yellow transit pick ups!!

Its funny you say this, we already have the vans there called ISU Incident support unit. Yellow and Orange with amber lights.

Have a look at what we do on the HA website and look in the traffic MTg 2004 act as well this may answer all your questions.