Safe Speed Forums

Very well put, RobinXe!

However, let's picture this. Just suppose that Valle Crucis' idea holds sway. That forensic crash investigators are given 30 minutes to inspect the scene of a crash, examine the vehicles, photograph skid marks, etc., before a bulldozer is called in to push the wrecks to the side of the road.

What reports could they write: "An accident took place." "Due to lack of time, we were unable to ascertain precisely what caused the accident, but bloody hell! It was a bad one!"

Let's further suppose that after a number of similar accidents it becomes clear that the new "Citroford Crucis" had a severe fault that lead to a catastrophic failure which caused the car to go out of control. But that this was not noticed due to the 30 minute examination rule. And cost the lives of a number of people.

Doubtless Valle Crucis would be ranting and raving about how disgraceful it was that the forensic examinations were so cursory, and how was it that this kind of thing could happen in a civilised society, "I pay my taxes", so on and so forth.

Or would he think it was a worthwhile cost just so long as he was never delayed by more than 30 minutes? Unless, of course, he bought one of the cars with such a fault...

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That's just one of the benefits of a fine education, courtesy of Mr Boroughs. Now, since you brought it up, at what Catholic School did you learn your Latin, RobinXe? Or did you attend the Dudsville Comprehensive and now you're "deliberately portraying a caricature"!? I mean, if you really were a gentleman with a knowledge of Latin, you ought to be able to carry on without resorting to all this bile and bluster.

This Latin stuff you've brought up is a load of tosh - we're talking about how quick wrecks should be towed away. But before we give up on it, here’s one more thing for you to google - we don't take kindly to your "ad hominem" attacks around here, so knock it on the head, please? Pretty please?



Face bovvered? am i bovvered? does my face look bovvered? I ain’t bovvered!

Don’t give me all that “bleeding heart” hogwash. Only about 1% of traffic accidents are caused by such engineering failures, so use your head. Just because you turn on the water-works doesn’t make you right, Thatnews, so show some evidence or pipe down.

We need to divert the resources to real issues, instead of using them all up scouring car wrecks for evidence that, in 99% of cases, simply isn’t there. And, as an added benefit, we’ll remove hundreds of millions of pounds of cost. It’s a no-brainer, so let’s get on with it. And if it frees up the traffic, better still.

Now I know that you've got your finger on the bile button, but hold off a minute and think. You don't have to use bile and bluster all your life. You still have time to change your ways. Over to you...

Well that didn't take too long...

Robin -

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Pecunia Prius Equitas et Salus

It would have taken even less had I not been stuck in a traffic jam on the A14 caused by some bozo in a van who didn't leave enough space in front.

Look, I've got plenty of sympathy with accident victims ... I was one myself, once upon a time. But if those investigations are as vital as RobinXe and that other fellow are saying, then they should make it clear how the data is being used.

Right now, it appears to be going down a black hole. Anyway, I'm off to the country now, so have a swell weekend!

You are the Board Troll and I claim my £5.00.

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What utterly selfish, and imbecilic, concepts!

That'snews are you going to respond to my posts?

I did respond to your posts, Bob.

However, if there was one I missed, or if there is a point of clarification you require, please tell me.

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This particular one

This particular one[/quote]

I had not considered that point. You could be right, Bob. But how many times have you seen a police car sat on one of those police only posts?

Probably hardly any. Yet HATOs are using them now. And, according to reports here, on a regular basis.

Perhaps police officers do not use them often because they are aware they could be a distraction?

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You've got a good point there. As far as I can see, an Astra diesel estate would serve their purposes just as well. It's not like they do any off-roading.

I'm a bit unsure as to why HATOS seem to be so reviled on SafeSpeed. I do a lot of motorway miles and pass dozens of these guys every day. From what I've seen they're doing a very good job of removing debris from the carriageway, "shielding" broken-down vehicles, directing traffic around accidents and other "caretaker" jobs that don't really require a fully-trained traffic cop. I've never once seen them get involved in speed limit enforcement.

I'm sure some of them are "wannabe" policemen, using the job as a career "stepping stone" before becoming traffic cops. I can't say I really have a problem with that as long as they do their job.

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“For every complex problem, there is a solution that is simple, neat, and wrong.” - H. L. Mencken

They aren't 'reviled' antera, at least not as far as I can see. In the large they do a fantastic job, but a mere few of their practices and purposes are questionable, and are being questioned here.

On the M27 HATO's seem to have downsized to enormous jap off-roaders now, so there's a start I suppose.

As for them being reviled, I hope that's not the case.

I think as RobinXe says there's probably a feeling of unease with the rapidity with which they've multiplied, and the seemingly not-very-well-defined scope of their powers, plus the cynical feeling that those powers will inevitably increase over time.

As an addition to trafpol

As a replacement for trafpol

I have spoken to a number of road recovery operators. The guys who recover a broken-down car right up to a double-decker coach or a large multi-axle wagon.

There concerns about HATOs are as follows:

1) Lack of proper training. Yet their attitude is: "We are traffic officers, so therefore YOU must do as WE say." (i.e., some of them (not all) come over as Mr Know-it-alls")

2) Far from helping to shield a broken down vehicle, they can get in the way. and can make a situation more dangerous. (If you park directly behind a vehicle that is broken down and do not know how to properly park in such circumstances, if hit from behind you merely get shunted into the other vehicle.)

3) Can make a simple recovery job more time consuming. (Closing too many lanes down, over use of cones, etc.)

4) Can "poke their noses in" and do more harm than good. This case in point was when a police force had called in their contracted recovery firm to deal with a broken-down vehicle.

The recovery truck arrived to see a HATO with "a bit of rope" attempting to hitch up for a tow. Upon being asked what he thought he was doing the HATO said: "Trying to save this man some money. All you recovery drivers do is rip off the public. I'll tow him to the garage for free." He admitted that he had no special equipment or training for towing but was of the opinion that "it could not be all that hard."

As luck would have it the recovery truck driver prevailed (he lifted the car on to a flatbed recovery truck) and recovered the vehicle. Luck? Yes. Because the fault that had developed would have been exacerbated by towing and would probably have cost a small fortune to put right.

5) Interfering with police investigations. The recovery of vehicles for forensic examinations is undertaken by staff specially trained in forensic recovery work using special vehicles and special techniques. (In some instances the police insist on the wheels of the recovered vehicles being stopped from moving.

On several occasions the police have found HATOs arranging to have vehicles that had been involved in serious road accidents dragged from the road before the police have even been able to arrange for photographs of the accident to be taken, let alone for the vehicles to be removed for forensic examination.

There are signs of some improvements. But as one HATO manager said: "I can't understand how our procedures vary so much from area to area, seeing as how young our organisation is." (His full quote is further back in this thread.)

As for cleaning the road after an accident, that was usually down to the vehicle recovery operator. So why did someone feel the need to create HATOs? Empire builders within the Highways Agency? Well, it's possible, I suppose...

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