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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 09:50 
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tinytim wrote:
SafeSpeed wrote:


Has he got a voice in his head repeating some key phrase to explain the "something"? If he does he learns. If he doesn't he doesn't learn.

It's up to us to create and disseminate those key phrases - obviously the powers that be are not thinking right at present.


Sorry Paul but I have to disagree on this one. this is learning to pass a test or carry out a drill not learning to implement a skill. Driving is very much a skill and a complex interaction, I would hazard a guess that most of the good drivers haven't so much forgotton the basics but don't need to think about them any more. How did that happen? How did the good drivers become good drivers? How did you discover that it's a good idea to hang back in L2 when an L1 vehicle is closing on the vehicle in front and is that always the case? I would hazard a guess that you can tell when a car is going to pull out in front of you from a side road, not always but sometimes you just know. How? The real improvements in driving don't come from the mechanics and dare I say there are drivers who religiously mirror signal mirror manoeuvre and will carry out the manoeuvre regardless of what they see in the mirror.

I agree with your experience thread but is it really possible to pass on experience. Given the complexities of driving and the multitude of factors than need to be accounted for there arn't many definate rules you could put a phrase to.


You are citing good examples of learning through experience, but it is learning nonetheless. It must be possible to pass on the experiential learning without forcing each and every new driver to rediscover things for themselves.
I believe it would be quite feasible to package together a 'good advice' guide for new drivers, giving them a heads-up on the sorts of situations that can develop into an accident, offer them the signs and symptoms so that they can take avoiding action before real avoiding action becomes necessary (if you get my drift).


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PostPosted: Thu Nov 04, 2004 17:21 
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RIGPIGwrote about a "new drivers package" -- sorry no amount of books will ever compare to experience - because the human brain never stops learning - Mrs B has'nt got a licence - but she has 30+ years of experience and can pass it on to the family's new drivers.-she acts as a sort of "co driver" to me -i have never found her to be wrong -

How about starting Driver Training at school at an early age with road safety - start at 7 and at 17 a kid will have 10 years head start on us ( unless the SCAMERASHIPS brainwash them)- nothing fancy just theory/videos/ computer simulations.

Next time on the road - try this - you have taken an action ANALYSE IT - did you take it or did BRAIN do it -

I AM OF THE OPINION THAT THERE IS NO SUBSTITUTE FOR EXPERIENCE - YOU CAN TEACH - BUT "PRACTICE MAKES PERFECT"

MOTTO FOR ALL DRIVERS -

WHEN PEOPLE SPEAK ILL OF YOU - ACT SO THAT NOBODY WILL BELIEVE THEM


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 02:14 
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From a limited experience in training engineering technicians I have found there is a difference between teaching someone and someone learning. One can teach facts but one has to learn how to apply them. I have come across a significant number of people who can be taught all the facts and figures required but quite simply cannot apply them to a problem. This becomes even more apparent when they move from classroom theory to shopfloor practicality. I don't think this is a revelation, it was once explained to me that scientists can discover all the wonders of the world, it takes an engineer to make use of them. A quote from Isarbard Kindom Brunell (I think) 'There are two types of people, those that can and those that can't. Those that can do, those that can't teach'. Whist neither of these statements are wholey true, they do tend to highlight the observation. If this difference in mental/practical capability does in fact exist then perhaps some form of psycometric testing could be incorporated into the theory test in an effort to identify those likely to have difficulty in applying the skills required to drive safely. Perhaps this would identify those likely to be on the left of the graph Safespeed posted above and provide the target audience for additional, or perhaps a different form, of instruction. How does one go about proving this hypothesis ( Damn, I'm going to need a scientist :oops: My appologies to any teachers aswell, it's not my qoute. :wink: )


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PostPosted: Fri Nov 05, 2004 02:28 
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I don't see the learning process as smooth or continuous. It's rapid at first, but later it comes in STEPS as facts are learned and slotted into a framework. Some days you might learn nothing (despite driving). Some days you might learn a couple of things.

These steps arise when a particular event is understood. Sometimes the same event may take place without learning because it isn't understood, or even because it isn't recognised as an event.

The purpose of this thread was to talk about improving the efficiency of the learning by providing a frame work that describes a) what events are important and b) highlights key solutions to problems.

I really think we can work towards "ten commandments of driving" that would strongly assist in the process. I know some of the ten, but I'm not yet ready to publish (and not least because a couple of them were defined by someone else)

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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 16:43 
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Quote:
The purpose of this thread was to talk about improving the efficiency of the learning by providing a frame work that describes a) what events are important and b) highlights key solutions to problems.

But here lies the problem, you are trying to improve the efficiency of a process not fully understood. You are quite right with your steps. One will be taking in the information as it is delivered but this requires a context to be learned. Early progress is quick as the information is simple and context is found easily, as the information becomes more complex so does giving it context. My point is that some people cannot give complex information context, so whilst they have the information they can't use it. The problem is not everyone learns in the same way and not everone processes information in the same way. There are 3 main groups: Audio, who process speach (and written work) most effectively; visual, who like to see the information pictorially and tactile, who like to get involved with the information. These are not of cousre distinct groups, we all deal with a bit of each but can deal with one delivery method better than the others, with some people however, this can be quite severe. I suggest that those with a tendency for tactile learning are those that become good drivers more quickly, followed by visual learners who will tend to be more observant. Audio learners with a substantial deficit in the other two areas have a problem learning ANY skill, they will easily learn the information you provide, they simply won't be able to use it effectively.
So all in all what you suggest stands to improve the driving ability of only those who are likely to be the better drivers already and only by a moderate amount because the delivery method does not fit. Perhaps what should be done is to give far more practical exercise. Audio learners will find it more difficult to pick up the information but it is in fact the only way to learn driving. The better drivers will be substantially better because the extra information is being delivered in the correct manner for them.
In a nutshell what i'm saying is the only way to learn to drive, is from experience.


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PostPosted: Sat Nov 06, 2004 20:29 
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tinytim wrote
"In a nutshell what i'm saying is the only way to learn to drive, is from experience."

The groundrules can be set up, the practical guidance can be given, but the learner only learns when faced with putting their knowledge into use and ONLY when they have the experience to draw on, so I agree with tinytim


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