Safe Speed Forums

http://www.cumbriasafetycameras.org/facts.php?link=2007&display=block
Once more the CSCP are pulling off a little sleight of hand, and have a slightly reduced set of statistics over their companion site, Safer Roads For Cumbria.

On comparing the two, I discovered that CSCP have done a David Copperfield and made February's statistics disappear!

Despite it being January 2008, we still dont have a figure for November.
I do hope they are not trying to make November or December disappear too!

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

I always enjoy these gems of yours Ernest. (Apologies to MM and IG for using their smiley! ) C******an (there's an H, another couple of As and an L in there as well) must surely rank you as one of the biggest and most painful thorns in his side by now....

I assume that the Safer Roads for Cumbria page you refer to is here.

I see what you mean, and I also see that, unlike SRfC, CSCP have already filled in 2007 as if it's the complete year's total (and yes, they've left out February as well as November and December). Since February was one of the least bad months, if they did leave it out deliberately (perish the thought), then it was obviously just to "deflate" the year figure slightly.

Also, looking at the 2006 totals on both sites, CSCP seem to have "forgotten" to include everything in their version of those, although the numbers correspond to their own monthly breakdown of 2006. Something's obviously not right somewhere.

Even if all these incorrect figures (that are seemingly always too low and never too high) are just mistakes, it hardly instills confidence in CSCP's statistical prowess if they can't even get basic things like that right. Similarly, if (totally hypothetically) it was deliberate, it would be unlikely to have been the only way in which they had plain lied about statistics (as opposed to merely being fraudulent, misleading or disingenuous like we are used to seeing). It would also show just how little regard they had for those who were getting killed and injured on Cumbria's roads.

I assume that if one of us emails them about this (maybe someone in Cumbria ), they will have no option but to correct the figures, in all probability sending a snotty reply instead of a professional (and warranted) apology, thereby showing what a bad attitude they have. Are there any examples of these incorrect statistics having been released to other outlets, e.g. newspapers? If so I hope corrections will be printed, and it should be CSCP that ensures that this gets done.

(Hi Steve! Better get to work.... )

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Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

interesting comparing those sites. Apart from the accidental omission of February 07 on one and the typo of an extra 300 SIs in Jan 07 on the other, there are some appreciable differences in earlier years, particularly 2006 - an extra death reported on one and a statistically significant number of injuries reported there too compared to the other.

I see Feb 07 on both, but I don't see Apr07 on the CSC site

I now see February and April. February definitely wasn't there when I last posted. Clearly they are checking this site an awful lot. Not that they perceive us as a threat or anything obviously.

_________________
Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

Jeepers Creepers - no kidding!
They've just changed tables again.

The original link you gave Bombus has been completely changed, now it points to the CSC page.

To the SCP staff who are monitoring this site:
you are utterly incompetent. It takes us, a charitably funded campaign group, to highlight the errors which your well paid, full time position creates (yet they say we're the ones who need peer-reviewing).
Also, isn't it odd how your 'errors' are always in your favour!

It's a pitty we didn't get snapshots of there tables.

_________________
Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

I suppose we should have expected that, although not so soon. Just as well I've still got the page open isn't it? Here are the year totals from there (and I've saved the whole page just in case):

Year Fatal Serious Slight Total
2000 56 437 2292 2785
2001 49 432 2183 2664
2002 49 410 2437 2896
2003 53 393 2245 2692
2004 57 377 2300 2734
2005 45 369 2209 2623
2006 60 342 2059 2461

What a complete farce. Utterly ridiculous. And you just know that there won't be anything approaching a reasonable apology when they've finished sorting out the mess. It's quite possible that they'll try to cover it up and excuse it in some way (c.f. the infamous incident with the camera that was erroneously flashing people below the limit, which Callaghan claimed was "being tested", instead of being big enough to just admit the mistake).




Steve has the time to go trolling on PH many times over several months as "Highway61" (pretending as usual to be a MoP who just happened to be pro-camera, and only stopping once he was rumbled by our very own MM), and to refresh the CSCP forum on this site seemingly hundreds of times a day, but not to get right or check even the most basic statistics which are supposed to justify the existence of his shoddy, shady, killer outfit. Doesn't he seem sure of himself and his cameras for someone who's on such unbelievably shaky ground? Resign Steve, you're an embarrassment even to the pro-camera nutters. You wouldn't last five minutes in the private sector. And since you don't need the money, it should be a straightforward decision. Show that you really want safer roads by removing your negative influence at once.

_________________
Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

Worry not; see above!

Funny how they've only taken down the page with the higher figures. Having said that I've just saved the CSCP page as it is now, in case it changes again.

_________________
Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)

It's now on the Whitehaven News website:

http://www.whitehaven-news.co.uk/news/v ... ?id=582420

(...or at least it was this morning)!

I wonder if it's time for a letter...?!

So I make that out as...

KSI’s for 2006 = 60
KSI’s for 2007 = 44



So I make that out as...

K’s for 2006 = 60
K’s for 2007 = 44

Or am I not looking at it properly?

_________________
Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

Using the figures available on the CSCP site 5 minutes ago there were 280 KSI's to date (October) as opposed to 283 KSI's to October 2006.
What a gift they got with the bad weather following the Rugby World Cup, which will have kept many indoors - unlike the good weather we had in the early part of the year when the figures looked awful.

So while they ran around moving figures from SRfC and correcting their longstanding error on their own site, they still failed to write up the figures for November and December - choosing instead to write a press release for the Whitehaven News.
In April, 5 of the fatals were motorcyclists killed in just one week - but notice a blip in both SI's and Slight Injury figures too, which had nothing to do with that few bad accidents with motorcyclists!


What a shame there is scant evidence of any driver education taking place - just fines for those who speed, and nothing for those whose driving is just crap!
No doubt Kevin will be off to Greece again for his holidays - paid for out of his wages for releasing all this rubbish, and correlating CSCP and SRfC figures (he works in both camps!).

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Why thank you - but the most serious thorns in their sides are motorists whose driving is so bad they keep falling off the road, and making the figures look bad for the illusionist who claims to be able to make accidents reduce with a speed camera, even when the accidents are not caused by speeding!

It's a bit like claiming people died on the Titanic because it was going too fast when it hit the iceberg.
Note that the answer was to put more lifeboats on ships, not make them go slower or teaching people to swim.

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Could it be that the figures are not what they hoped they would be? By releasing the statement now on partial figures they get a big splash headline. In a few weeks they update their site with no announcement. No big splash headline. It is only when someone checks back that the possible deceit is evident.

No, it's simply that despite employing a FULL TIME statistician, they are just crap at what they do.
They cant reduce accidents, instead merely relying on accidental changes and RTTM, and they cant keep their figure straight either - February's figures have been missing for a while!
I just thought that since it is the end of the old year, it was worth mentioning!

Note they removed all their dodgy online calibration certificates too, in case somebody went to court with a laptop (they could not be saved or printed out from the PDF).

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Do we have any figures for a good number of previous years along the "Cumberland gap"? It struck me that as this is now under road works and has been for pretty much the whole year, with every lay-by closed off. On it's own, this has probably been responsible for some of the reduction in KSIs in 2007. There might also have been other road layout changes that need to be taken into account as well.

Seems to be a long time to have road works. Have they been conducting a trafic survey there as well?

_________________
Useless laws weaken necessary laws.

It's a big project - several miles of dual carriageway at the top of the M6 is now being turned into motorway to provide a seamless transition into the M74. For the last few months it has had SPECS cameras along it too, so doubtless any reduction in accidents has been due to these and nothing whatsoever to do with removing the huge speed differential that a lay-by creates!

I dont understand why they did not spot it sooner... I had mentioned the differences once before here

Maybe the lookout was asleep! Watch out for more depth charges!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

_________________
Paul Smith: a legend.

"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)