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 Post subject: CSCP Fixed Scameras
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 12:07 
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Joined: Thu Jun 10, 2004 18:58
Posts: 306
Location: LanCA$Hire ex Kendal
CSCP's long-awaited fixed scams are now up and running, as Ernest kindly informed us. (CSCP website now has pictures too... :lol: ).

Steve clearly stated on the defunct CSCP forum Emergency vehicles showing blue lights were not targeted by the mobile scams.

Could JJ please confirm what procedures have been put in place with the fixed scams to ensure the Fire and Ambulance service do not have their time wasted by CSCP, let alone IanH and his colleagues....


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 14:33 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 09:51
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Quote:
Cumbria Safety Cameras are using these cameras to reduce the unusually high accident and injury rates at these locations where they follow the already high on-site accident reduction rate of 71% produced by the mobile cameras operated since April 2003.


Reduced by 71% !?!?
"Since" April 2003 and compared to what, exactly? March 2003?

Too bad that they don't mention that the 71% reduction has seemingly been countered by a 71% increase away from the cameras - as evidence by not seeing a 71% fall in "KSI" for Cumbria (and they always forget to mention that fatalities actually increased).

More spin..... and selective stats.


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 Post subject: Re: CSCP Fixed Scameras
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 14:50 
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Camera Partnership Staff
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Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 15:38
Posts: 413
kendalian wrote:
CSCP's long-awaited fixed scams are now up and running, as Ernest kindly informed us. (CSCP website now has pictures too... :lol: ).

Steve clearly stated on the defunct CSCP forum Emergency vehicles showing blue lights were not targeted by the mobile scams.

Could JJ please confirm what procedures have been put in place with the fixed scams to ensure the Fire and Ambulance service do not have their time wasted by CSCP, let alone IanH and his colleagues....


I can confirm that there are procedures in place that this will not happen.

JJ


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 14:53 
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Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 15:38
Posts: 413
ianc wrote:
Quote:
Cumbria Safety Cameras are using these cameras to reduce the unusually high accident and injury rates at these locations where they follow the already high on-site accident reduction rate of 71% produced by the mobile cameras operated since April 2003.


Reduced by 71% !?!?
"Since" April 2003 and compared to what, exactly? March 2003?

Too bad that they don't mention that the 71% reduction has seemingly been countered by a 71% increase away from the cameras - as evidence by not seeing a 71% fall in "KSI" for Cumbria (and they always forget to mention that fatalities actually increased).

More spin..... and selective stats.


Previous Average of 3 years and the KSI figure is dropping 433 for 2004 that included 57 Fatals. sse the site for more details

JJ


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 15:10 
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 15:05
Posts: 1225
Location: Glasgow
"High on-site reduction."

The minute you read any statistic that mentions reductions at camera sites, dismiss it as regression to the mean.

Even a 'previous three year average' isn't enough to factor RTTM errors out completely as the average will be tainted by a one-off higher figure.

Give us a read out of fixed period stats (annually - not averaged, so we can see where the blips are) on a graph showing before and after enforcement and then we might be able to take something meaningful from it.

Otherwise, by all means report your stats but don't lie and say the cameras did it.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 16:00 
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Joined: Thu Mar 11, 2004 09:51
Posts: 90
Quote:
and the KSI figure is dropping 433 for 2004 that included 57 Fatals


Ah yes, that would be what Steve referred to as a slight "wobble". Which would really be regression to the mean.

If CSCP were really having an effect, how come the dramatic 71% reduction (or at least even a proportion of it), is not repeated accross the whole of Cumbria?

And sorry JJ, but once again, you fail to mention that fatalities were actually UP, compared to the previous years. And according to the figures on the CSCP web site (for example), the number of fatalities is the highest since at least 1999 - but this is never mentioned in any press release from yourselves.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Mar 01, 2005 23:05 
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
ianc wrote:
Quote:
Cumbria Safety Cameras are using these cameras to reduce the unusually high accident and injury rates at these locations where they follow the already high on-site accident reduction rate of 71% produced by the mobile cameras operated since April 2003.


Reduced by 71% !?!?
"Since" April 2003 and compared to what, exactly? March 2003?

Too bad that they don't mention that the 71% reduction has seemingly been countered by a 71% increase away from the cameras - as evidence by not seeing a 71% fall in "KSI" for Cumbria (and they always forget to mention that fatalities actually increased).

More spin..... and selective stats.

Its TRUE! I havent spoken to the driver who had a medical problem at the wheel, and crashed off the road at Ings - thus justifying the placement of the speed cameras, but I CAN confirm, that he has NOT crashed at Ings since! :evil:
I dont think he speeds either - he collects his paper on his pushbike each morning!
Amazing what these cameras can do, isnt it! :wink:
.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:00 
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:44
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Location: Glos, UK
So you're comparing one year against a three-year rolling average? Why would you possibly do that unless there was some kind of intent to distort the true figures?

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Carl Prescott


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 Post subject: Re: CSCP Fixed Scameras
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 10:37 
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Former Police Officer
Former Police Officer

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 21:42
Posts: 186
Location: Notts.
JJ wrote:
kendalian wrote:
CSCP's long-awaited fixed scams are now up and running, as Ernest kindly informed us. (CSCP website now has pictures too... :lol: ).

Steve clearly stated on the defunct CSCP forum Emergency vehicles showing blue lights were not targeted by the mobile scams.

Could JJ please confirm what procedures have been put in place with the fixed scams to ensure the Fire and Ambulance service do not have their time wasted by CSCP, let alone IanH and his colleagues....


I can confirm that there are procedures in place that this will not happen.

JJ


Please provide details of these "Procedures", as Notts scammers seem to be unaware of them. :oops:

_______________________________________________
NO 'PROOF' EXISTS THAT CAMERAS "SAVE LIVES"!!


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 Post subject: Re: CSCP Fixed Scameras
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 17:19 
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Camera Partnership Staff
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Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 15:38
Posts: 413
Hanbo... wrote:
JJ wrote:
kendalian wrote:
CSCP's long-awaited fixed scams are now up and running, as Ernest kindly informed us. (CSCP website now has pictures too... :lol: ).

Steve clearly stated on the defunct CSCP forum Emergency vehicles showing blue lights were not targeted by the mobile scams.

Could JJ please confirm what procedures have been put in place with the fixed scams to ensure the Fire and Ambulance service do not have their time wasted by CSCP, let alone IanH and his colleagues....


I can confirm that there are procedures in place that this will not happen.

JJ


Please provide details of these "Procedures", as Notts scammers seem to be unaware of them. :oops:

_______________________________________________
NO 'PROOF' EXISTS THAT CAMERAS "SAVE LIVES"!!

You could try an FoI to ACPO or go on their website. Most of their policies are there. I would think this is as well.


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 Post subject: Re: CSCP Fixed Scameras
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 17:31 
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 06:46
Posts: 16903
Location: Safe Speed
JJ wrote:
You could try an FoI to ACPO or go on their website. Most of their policies are there. I would think this is as well.


ACPO are not a public body within the meaning of the Freedom of Information Act 2000.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


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 Post subject: Re: CSCP Fixed Scameras
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 18:46 
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Former Police Officer
Former Police Officer

Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 21:42
Posts: 186
Location: Notts.
JJ wrote:
I can confirm that there are procedures in place that this will not happen.

JJ


<Sigh> I'll ask again:

Will YOU please provide details of these "Procedures" which YOU claim YOU "can confirm" are "in place" ?

_______________________________________________
NO 'PROOF' EXISTS THAT CAMERAS "SAVE LIVES"!!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 19:54 
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Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
A couple of questions about Ings, from looking at the pictures on the CSCP website:
  1. What is the speed limit at that point?
  2. Has the road there always been one lane in each direction, or was it a conventional 2-lane dual carriageway in the past?

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Mar 02, 2005 20:34 
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Joined: Tue Feb 15, 2005 00:15
Posts: 5232
Location: Windermere
Speed limit = 40 mph

Road was originally NSL three lane (shared central lane).
It was then modified by making the centre lane a phantom island (hatched lane) with turning areas for the lane into Ings itself, and the filling station.

Finally, it was "engineered" by making a grassed median, with sheltered turning points as before for most of it's length, but with a phantom island at each end, demarked by islands with lamp standards and bollards, and at the Windermere end (far distance in the picture with grassy foreground and path) two painted chicanes.

DS 2 loops were installed at each end, just in front of the CSCP mobile positions, but I dont ever recall them being used!
A shared cyclelane/footpath crosses from one side of the A591 to the other, at the point where the cameras are - in fact the loops are aligned with the crossing.

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


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 Post subject: Re: CSCP Fixed Scameras
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:02 
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Camera Partnership Staff
Camera Partnership Staff

Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 15:38
Posts: 413
Hanbo... wrote:
JJ wrote:
I can confirm that there are procedures in place that this will not happen.

JJ


<Sigh> I'll ask again:

Will YOU please provide details of these "Procedures" which YOU claim YOU "can confirm" are "in place" ?

_______________________________________________
NO 'PROOF' EXISTS THAT CAMERAS "SAVE LIVES"!!


We use Video and photographic evidence that is processed by an operator. Operators are instructed to ignore vehicles that are carrying out emergency or Police duties. Our camera operators are also instructed in the same. I don't think thats to hard to understand is it.

JJ


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:31 
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Location: Windermere
JJ wrote:
We use Video and photographic evidence that is processed by an operator. Operators are instructed to ignore vehicles that are carrying out emergency or Police duties. Our camera operators are also instructed in the same. I don't think thats to hard to understand is it.

Not once you can read what the policy is, and it's no longer a closely guarded secret! :wink:

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Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!


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 Post subject: Re: CSCP Fixed Scameras
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 10:38 
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:44
Posts: 485
Location: Glos, UK
JJ wrote:
We use Video and photographic evidence that is processed by an operator. Operators are instructed to ignore vehicles that are carrying out emergency or Police duties. Our camera operators are also instructed in the same. I don't think thats to hard to understand is it.

And how do you know if it's on emergency or police duty when a GATSO takes the picture? After all, you're not going to be able to see if its lights are on or off...

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Carl Prescott


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 Post subject: Re: CSCP Fixed Scameras
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:29 
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Joined: Mon Jan 17, 2005 15:38
Posts: 413
CarlP wrote:
JJ wrote:
We use Video and photographic evidence that is processed by an operator. Operators are instructed to ignore vehicles that are carrying out emergency or Police duties. Our camera operators are also instructed in the same. I don't think thats to hard to understand is it.

And how do you know if it's on emergency or police duty when a GATSO takes the picture? After all, you're not going to be able to see if its lights are on or off...

What would your option be for best practice?


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 Post subject: Re: CSCP Fixed Scameras
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:43 
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Joined: Wed Mar 10, 2004 15:05
Posts: 1225
Location: Glasgow
JJ wrote:
What would your option be for best practice?


Hilarious! You are aware of the problem and you are running the show therefor it is your responsibility to formulate a solution. We'd like to hear what you are doing now.

However, if it's suggestions you need, how about 'scrap the cameras'....

:wink:


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 Post subject: Re: CSCP Fixed Scameras
PostPosted: Thu Mar 03, 2005 11:43 
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Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 10:44
Posts: 485
Location: Glos, UK
JJ wrote:
What would your option be for best practice?

No, this is a discussion about the procedures that you have in place already so as you do not waste any of the emergency services' time with stupid NIPs and the like. You said these procedures are there, in place and that you will not waste any of their time.

Where are these procedures? Or are you now admitting you do waste (at least some of) their time?

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Carl Prescott


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