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 Post subject: News and Star letter
PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 13:14 
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http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinion/vi ... ?id=268543

Do safety cameras cost lives?

Published on 02/08/2005

SO, of 400 people (approximately 0.0008 per cent of Cumbria’s population) asked, 70 per cent believe safety cameras save lives (News & Star, July 26).

If, as the Cumbria Safety Camera Partnership (CSCP) would have us believe, speeding costs lives there should surely be a link between road deaths and the number of speeding fines issued. As numbers of speeding fines issued go up should numbers of road deaths not go down?

Until CSCP started, the annual average number of fixed penalty notices for speeding issued by Cumbria Constabulary was 4,652 (£279,120 in fines).

DfT figures published for 2003 to 2004 show that 26,979 notices were issued (£1,618,740 in fines). That is a staggering 5.8-fold increase.

I have never seen CSCP quote deaths on Cumbrian roads, only “killed and seriously injured” (KSI). Why is this? Could it be that quoting KSI allows them to hide the fact that, although KSI has reduced over the last few years (I believe it was falling before they began operations) according to DfT figures, deaths on Cumbrian roads have increased? This makes it difficult not to draw an obvious conclusion: “Safety” cameras cost lives.

I would be interested to see how and if CSCP can defend the rise in deaths since they started their operations.

PETER HUTCHINSON

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PostPosted: Tue Aug 02, 2005 14:25 
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Of course they can't defend the rise in deaths, but they will defend their ability to draw their wages every month and to continue to collect in the cash for their lords and masters, which, to them, is what really matters.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Aug 04, 2005 00:17 
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I'm glad someone has brought this up in the papers! It needed to be brought out in public. What we now need to do is keep it there. CSCP have had a fair crack at the whip now and its time they were held to account. I'd love to be that useless at my job for a cople of years and still expect to get paid!


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 10:24 
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http://www.newsandstar.co.uk/opinion/viewarticle.aspx?id=269246

Safety cameras do save lives
Published on 04/08/2005

Mr Hutchinson’s thinly veiled accusation that safety cameras cost lives (Letters, August 2) highlights the usual mistakes perpetuated by people who cherry pick statistics to try to prove a point.

Cumbria Safety Cameras has never hidden the number of people killed on the county’s roads and these are updated on a monthly basis on our web site. They are also included in a monthly advertisement published in all the county’s weekly newspapers.

It is wrong to choose two of the lowest years for fatalities – 2001 and 2002 – and compare them with those who died during 2003 and 2004. Between 1994 and 2004 the number of people killed in road accidents in Cumbria has varied between 47 and 63, giving an 11-year average of 53.4.

No one has ever claimed that safety cameras are the sole means by which fatalities can be reduced. Indeed, as we monitor probably less than one per cent of the country’s road networks, it is impossible for us to do so.

However, in 2004 the number of people killed and seriously injured at the hotspots monitored by the cameras was reduced by almost 70 per cent, so we are succeeding in our core task.

Regarding the survey statistics , when market research surveys are carried out, the number of respondents is treated to a statistical weighting process. CN Research interviewed 400 respondents who were chosen at random from a telephone book. It ensured that quotas were apportioned to each age group and gender so the survey would be representative of Cumbria. Four hundred responses gives a + or - error of 4.7 per cent at 95 per cent confidence levels.

Finally, 73.5 per cent of people killed on the county’s roads in 2004 and 78 per cent so far in 2005 have been local residents. No matter how hard we and other partners try to reduce the tragedy of fatalities, it is ultimately down to the people who live and drive in Cumbria to reduce this catastrophic waste of human life.

Kevin Tea is communications manager for Cumbria Safety Cameras


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 11:43 
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JJ wrote:
Regarding the survey statistics , when market research surveys are carried out, the number of respondents is treated to a statistical weighting process. CN Research interviewed 400 respondents who were chosen at random from a telephone book.

I dare you to publish the actual questions that were asked in the survey.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 14:10 
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Err, "JJ", why is choosing 2001 and 2002 cherry picking?

Surely it's logical to look at the 2 years (or preferably 3) before you started in business, to compare with subsequent years?

If you are suggesting 2001 and 2002 were abnormally good years, why did you start up in business at all? :lol: :lol:


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 15:28 
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kendalian wrote:
Err, "JJ", why is choosing 2001 and 2002 cherry picking?

Surely it's logical to look at the 2 years (or preferably 3) before you started in business, to compare with subsequent years?

If you are suggesting 2001 and 2002 were abnormally good years, why did you start up in business at all? :lol: :lol:

have a look back at the SS and JT et al posts of 2003 and 2004 regarding long term trends and accusations of cherry picking.
Why is it OK for SS and mob to cherry pick now when it obviously wasn't then?
Me thinks there is a little feeling of a threat at chez SS and he is on the offensive at our particular little target, what larks!
There is a smell of something soft and brown in the trousers and it ain't at this end of the Internet! 8-)


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 15:29 
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pogo wrote:
JJ wrote:
Regarding the survey statistics , when market research surveys are carried out, the number of respondents is treated to a statistical weighting process. CN Research interviewed 400 respondents who were chosen at random from a telephone book.

I dare you to publish the actual questions that were asked in the survey.

I think they already have been. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 15:33 
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Shouldn't kill you to go over them again then (and yes, I know the DoT do the questions, not you, but if they have a positive bias it doesn't matter who thought them up).

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 16:03 
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JJ wrote:
pogo wrote:
JJ wrote:
Regarding the survey statistics , when market research surveys are carried out, the number of respondents is treated to a statistical weighting process. CN Research interviewed 400 respondents who were chosen at random from a telephone book.

I dare you to publish the actual questions that were asked in the survey.

I think they already have been. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

WHERE?!!!!

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 16:05 
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JJ wrote:
I think they already have been. zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz


Think harder then. Have they or haven't they?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 16:07 
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JJ wrote:
kendalian wrote:
Err, "JJ", why is choosing 2001 and 2002 cherry picking?

Surely it's logical to look at the 2 years (or preferably 3) before you started in business, to compare with subsequent years?

If you are suggesting 2001 and 2002 were abnormally good years, why did you start up in business at all? :lol: :lol:

have a look back at the SS and JT et al posts of 2003 and 2004 regarding long term trends and accusations of cherry picking.


It isn't cherry picking to look at all the data since a change now is it?

JJ wrote:
Why is it OK for SS and mob to cherry pick now when it obviously wasn't then?
Me thinks there is a little feeling of a threat at chez SS and he is on the offensive at our particular little target, what larks!
There is a smell of something soft and brown in the trousers and it ain't at this end of the Internet! 8-)


Meet me on BBC Radio Cumbria then. We'll see exactly who's in the poo.

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Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 19:10 
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JJ wrote:
Safety cameras do save lives


Come on JJ, you can't lump SIs and Ks together, and claim 'cameras save lives'; it's pseudo-science.

Reminds me of your namesake JJ Warr. He played in two test matches and took a best of 1-76. As a joke he used to say to Fred Trueman, "Do you know Fred, between us we have taked 308 test wickets?"


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Aug 05, 2005 22:59 
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CN Research wrote:
CN Research has been built on twenty years of experience in the research field. We aim to aid companies in making the most of Market Research. We endeavour to employ a depth of interpretation
that will make research more meaningful and allow the integration of that research into your day to day business.
CN Research undertakes both Quantitative and Qualitative research techniques to find the solutions to business problems. We are members of the Market Research Society and adhere strictly to their codes of conduct.

You PAY, we SAY!!
It's what you'd expect of a company who also own commercial radio stations like The Bay, and Lakeland Radio, and "news" papers such as

The Cumberland News
Eskdale & Liddesdale Advertiser
The Gazette Series
Hexham Courant
News & Star
North West Evening Mail
Times & Star
The Whitehaven News

If you pay enough, you can control the news! I'm surprised the letter made it to publication!!

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