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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 17:03 
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I'm interested in this instance in the larger part of driver skills acqusition - the self taught skills in COAST, risk management etc.

I believe that the main chain of influence is as follows:

culture > beliefs > error recognition > error understanding > improvement

It's this 'improvement' that is called 'experience'.

Now obviously those first four terms are very much within reach of road safety policy.

culture - what people think and believe as a group
beliefs - plenty of false beliefs out there; beliefs are mainly set by culture
error recognition - you have to recognise a mistake to learn from it
error understanding - you have to understand the mistake to benefit from it

Is this simple description valid? Can it be improved? Are similar descriptions in the scientific literature anywhere? Any comments?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 18:32 
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With learning, isn't there something along the lines of:

Stage 1 Not knowing that you need to know things
Stage 2 Knowing that there are things you need to know
Stage 3 Knowing those things you should know

Whatever it is - I'm sure it's usually put better than that! :lol:

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 19:19 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
With learning, isn't there something along the lines of:

Stage 1 Not knowing that you need to know things
Stage 2 Knowing that there are things you need to know
Stage 3 Knowing those things you should know

Whatever it is - I'm sure it's usually put better than that! :lol:


Yeah, that's good. I'm really working on building and justifying an 'influence model' for an article.

So in the context of your view...

Stage 1 - tell folk they need to know things
Stage 2 - deliver the information

But we need to rejig it a bit to deliver the skills that become subconscious.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 19:33 
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SafeSpeed wrote:

Stage 1 - tell folk they need to know things
Stage 2 - deliver the information

But we need to rejig it a bit to deliver the skills that become subconscious.


The trouble with Stage 1 is not the telling - it's convincing people that they need to know more.

And - just a thought - but aren't all skills subconscious?

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 19:44 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
And - just a thought - but aren't all skills subconscious?


HA! Now there's a question... I suspect they are.

But as a general rule we (society) ignore the role of the subconscious entirely.

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 21:15 
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SafeSpeed wrote:
Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
And - just a thought - but aren't all skills subconscious?


HA! Now there's a question... I suspect they are.

But as a general rule we (society) ignore the role of the subconscious entirely.


Now I think about it a bit more, I guess a conscious skill is knowing when to use the subconscious skills. That is a true skill!

I suspect we (society) ignore the role of the subconscious because it is taken for granted by many and not realised by the rest

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PostPosted: Sat Jan 20, 2007 22:06 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
I suspect we (society) ignore the role of the subconscious because it is taken for granted by many and not realised by the rest


ABSOLUTELY! The skills we depend on are invisible.

No wonder policy has got itself in a mess.

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 21, 2007 18:05 
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The development of semiotic tools (mental tools for making sense of signs and contexts) is relevant to driving, as the relationship between specific skills and understandings (eg about driving) and general ones (skills and understandings about risk for example). The relationship is all very complex.

Below is an extract from a paper which discusses some of these things (sorry it WAS written for an academic readership)

________________________________________________________
Learning and Culture

It is a far from new view that the development of an individual’s skills, both subject specific and general, is intrinsically linked to the culture of the particular society and the learning activities which are shared within that context. The word “culture” here applies as much to the culture of a specific discipline, for example Engineering, as to that of higher education and society at large. It is argued that learning activities need to be “authentic”; that they should be normal activities within the culture in question, whose conceptual tools and artefacts cannot be used effectively without the learner adopting the culture and thus developing understanding of how a practitioner addresses problems and sees the world. Even the rules of discourse are specific to a particular culture. It is by encountering concepts, methods and artefacts in the context of authentic activity that learners develop the ability to see how they might be applied elsewhere.

Cognitive Apprenticeship
That concept that learning is therefore “situated” in the contexts of culture and learning environment, supports a view of learning based on the way that apprentices learn from experienced skilled workers. The relationship between any expert practitioner and learner should be similar, in that learners are involved in realistic activities which involve collaboration with peers and experts and which enable them to acquire the language of the culture and the tools to discuss, reflect on and evaluate their practice.
Of particular relevance here is Vygotsky’s Zone of Proximal Development or ZPD which focuses on learning as taking place between those activities which a learner can undertake on their own and those which can be successfully addressed with the aid of an expert practitioner or more advanced peers.

Semiotics
Linked to work on cognitive apprenticeship is the concept that collaborating and discussing realistic activities will enable learners to develop an understanding of the way the tools and practices of a given culture can be reapplied to give meaning to new activities, and by recognising their significance, increase the degree to which the learner can be said to have adopted or absorbed the culture. In particular, the development of the use of meaning-making, or semiotic, tools is a particularly important aspect of communication between learner and expert.

Collaboration - Individual or Social Learning?
The above imply that collaboration and group working are fundamental to successful learning. Working in groups on realistic activities is considered to lead to improved problem solving approaches, enable better reflection on the roles involved in a specific activity, assist in identifying misconceptions and, of course, develop collaborative work skills. It is also considered to help the learner to make appropriate choices in applying expertise developed to different and new activities. However, the individual and social aspects need careful consideration. Although students operate in a cultural and social context, an individual might be learning on their own and very much for their own benefit, or working cooperatively and collaboratively in a group where the benefits are shared.

A recent paper identified two continua:
• From the individual learning on their own to the participative learning situation with active assistance and support.
• From the individual learning "for themselves", through an individual learning in support of a group activity, to groups learning for the collective benefit and sharing the results of learning.
Its authors argue that the individual and social aspects of each can work to strengthen one another in a "reciprocal spiral". This is exemplified later.

Tacit and Codified Knowledge
Tacit (or strategic) knowledge and skills have a complex but necessary interrelationship with those which are specialised and subject specific (or codified). Through the acquisition of subject or domain specific knowledge a learner can view general skills in context, but the acquisition and application of general strategies are vital to the achievement of those outcomes associated with "deep learning".

<citation> noted that whilst the inappropriate use of general strategies can impede learning, so can incomplete or wrongly perceived specific knowledge and, although general strategies assist in the use and acquisition of specialised knowledge, as the amount of that knowledge acquired increases, the way that general strategies are used changes. Also, significantly, although the relative importance of tacit and codified knowledge may vary across disciplines or tasks, it is likely that one hallmark of the expert practitioner is perceiving their relatedness.
___________________________________________________________

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 22:04 
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Hi On a training course in the dim and distant past was the following stages of knowledge/learning

1/ unconscious incompetence

2/ conscious incompetence

3/ conscious competence

4/ unconscious competence

1/ to start with you dont know what you dont know !
2/you then try it and you soon find out what you dont know
3/you then are taught the basics
4/you become experienced - by doing

Training can take you up to level 3 i.e. you can undertake the task but have to think about it.

Experience/practice allows you to undertake the task without any apparent conscious thought - level 4

there are many other angles to this You could be at level 4 for the mechanics of driving a car - i.e. learnt on an air field. But at level 1 for the highway code. Or for most recent test passers level 1 for motorway driving.

:) Richard


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 23:06 
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HalcyonRichard wrote:
1/ unconscious incompetence

2/ conscious incompetence

3/ conscious competence

4/ unconscious competence



Thanks. That's what I was trying to remember!

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 22, 2007 23:19 
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Grumpy Old Biker wrote:
HalcyonRichard wrote:
1/ unconscious incompetence

2/ conscious incompetence

3/ conscious competence

4/ unconscious competence



Thanks. That's what I was trying to remember!


I'd rememberd, but it doesn't leave much room for connection to an 'influence model' - it's a very 'internalised' description.

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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 04:20 
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Paul, I am reminded of the question: "What is the difference between EDUCATION and TRAINING?"...............


Well!........


If your daughter came home from school and said: "we're having sex education in school tomorrow daddy!" You wouldn't be too worried...


However......


If She came home and said: "We're having sex TRAINING in school tomorrow daddy!"........................:)


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 06:52 
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So training is on the job then.. ;-)

Joking apart though, there has to be a lot of room for educating the unconscious brain with the conscious, doesn't there? After all, the former is so massive, and has so much spare capacity, compared to the latter.


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PostPosted: Sat Feb 10, 2007 10:30 
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Roger wrote:
Joking apart though, there has to be a lot of room for educating the unconscious brain with the conscious, doesn't there?


Which is exactly what the (IAM / RoSPA / Roadcraft / Police) system of car control does.

But I don't think they have noticed that once the subconscious has been programmed 'the system' becomes redundant.

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