Safe Speed Forums

I REALLY can't see it at all.

1) We're told that business face costs of congestion of £20billion PA. I believe it. That's a congestion charge and I believe it works. Adding a monetary charge will be considerably smaller, so it's effects will be smaller.

2) The primary journey choice regulator is and will always be travel time. In the future we might manage to price some poor costs-constrained folk off the roads, but that will just leave more road space and shorter travel times available for the rich to take advantage of. So the system re-balances.

In view of these observations, I believe that any congestion benefit will be very short lived. But the overhead cost will go on 'forever'. That's a few billion a year that could be spent on improving transport. Even if it worked, it would NEVER make economic sense.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

But the point I was making is that if charging was accompanied by a change in planning policy to encourage development on uncongested roads then it could over time work to reduce congestion.

The demand for road usage is far from infinite, and there must be a way of rearranging travel patterns to make better use of the road network we have.

I am, of course, highly sceptical that road charging will accomplish that in the real world.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Peter,

I'm a huge believer in market forces. But the 'road space' market is already subject to the laws of supply and demand. The greater our need to travel, the more time we're prepared to spend doing it.

Everyone is equally time constrained by congestion, but obviously they value their time differently.

If we can come up with another example of a market with two regulators - a much simpler market - I'm sure we'll be able to see that the 'secondary' regulator is swamped by the primary regulator.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Looks like DfT might be waking up to the travel time regulator:

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/d ... 13612.hcsp

I haven't fully studied it yet.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

will this form of road pricing not increase CO2 emmisions? If it is going to cost £1:34 per mile to use a motorway, people will use other roads. Other roads which are less efficent at moving traffic. Anyway, the other "non motorway" roads are all quite congested too, so people will still be using motorways.

I might have just twigged what the road pricing thing really is about (apart from the interests of the suppliers).

It's not so much about reducing congestion as about reducing demand for road travel. With prices at a high enough level, people wouldn't travel at all, and traffic (as opposed to congestion) could be reduced. If traffic is reduced, then congestion probably would follow it down.

At the marginal level where road pricing for congestion preserves travel levels, congestion won't be cut at all because every space in the trafiic vacated by a poor driver wil be re-occupied by a richer driver.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Here's a strong 'con' nicked from a draft forthcoming ABD PR:

Road pricing gives the illusion that something is being done to improve transport and so replaces genuine investments or improvements. In other words, it's an ineffective salve.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

In effect - road pricing charged as a variable at differing times is similar to the pricing structure used on public transport (ignoring the idea of buying a ticket weeks in advance) --where the concept of peak and off peak travel -
and does it stop the lack of space on trains on Fridays ---.

does it stop crowding on busses at set times ......

Will it reduce congestion on roads.......

Will VED be reduced or fuel duty be lowered....


Will it make yet more money for HMG ---oh yes yes yes

In other words IMHO -the word CON is THE adjective since the same principle has not worked on public transport.

Off peak travel on PT is not really the same thing, as it is designed to maximise revenue by only charging a marginal cost when the level of usage is low. It should really be regarded as a discount off the "normal" price.

One assumes revenue maximisation on quieter roads by encouraging more traffic won't be on the agenda of road pricing.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

[quote="PeterE
One assumes revenue maximisation on quieter roads by encouraging more traffic won't be on the agenda of road pricing.[/quote]

ASSUME = ASS U ME : ----- and with this govt , never ASS U ME AMYTHING ,or else you are the ASS

when they say "Revenue Neutral", do they mean I won't end up paying any more than I would now, or do they mean, The Treasury will still get the same amount to play with once all the operating costs have been taken away? There is a big difference and I suspect the latter.

All very well reducing demand, but people still need to get to work. People don't have jobs for life anymore and are less likely to move when they change jobs. Mr and Mrs average might have a couple of kids at school and they both might have jobs. Do they stay in one place so their kids don't get disrupted by moving school, never mind the general trauma of moving. Or do they move to near where Mr Average office is, or do they move to where Mrs Average office is?

They say, "oh, there's going to be x billions of quid to spend on transport by road pricing". No there isn't, there is already billions of £'s going to No. 11 in the form of fuel duty and next to nothing gets spent on the transport infrastructre, so why are they going to suddenly spend all this money (that will cost fortunes to collect) on transport once we all have a GPS transmitter in our motors?

At ther begining of Blairs reign Prescott anounced some grand plane for an Intragrated Transport System and said it would be in place in 10 years. Any sign of it? I've not seen it.

It's all boll**cks. Anyway what's to stop us registering our cars in Belgium or just smashing the transmitter?

Here's a potentially big 'PRO' that we seem to have missed...

Assuming that future road capacity is severly limited... We might then decide to raise fuel duty to limit demand, but if we did that the disadvantage would bear disproportionately on rural communities. Road pricing does not carry this severe drawback.

So the Pro is 'fairer than fuel duty for rural and remote communities'.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That depends on the cost per mile of the road pricing. Fuel costs me 11 pence per mile about at the moment of which 85% is tax in various guises, so will rural roads be 8.5 pence or less per mile? I doubt it.

Just by way of comparison, look at the cost per mile of cars in the car mags. Look at what you can run for the £1.30/ mile that we hear for major roads at peak times, it's big luxo barges. Where is every one that can't afford £1.30 a mile for a car going to work or how are the going to travel to work? That's going to be a lot of trains.

As with most governments given the choice between carrot and stick politics ours use the stick everytime. I have a miriad objections to the idea of road pricing one big one being that it's money led (our dear leaders are obsessed with the stuff) which means those on low incomes will get badly stiffed, while a huge percentage of drivers will just put it on their expenses form and those being stiffed once will be stiffed again as everything gets a bit more expensive to pay those expenses.

The bit I really like about this scheme is not only do we not want it but our dear leaders will make us pay to pay by forcing us to buy the black box - doubtless tied in with the MOT. I can see a rush to buy 50's cars with 6V + earth dynamo systems! Go on GB get your ******** GPS box to work with one of those.

If they really wanted to try reduce congestion then what some incentives that give us something back? Encourges people to work and live in the same area and educate their children locally.

Oh I just thought of a Pro:
Would road pricing put an end to Tarquin and Jocasta being shipped halfway across the county to school? Given the startling drop in traffic levels when the kids aren't in school anything that encouraged less school miles would be good.

Barkstar

_________________
The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

Probably not... People with that sort of income level aren't going to be dissuaded by the prospect of paying a few hundred extra quid a year.

_________________
"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

No, but it'll restrict POOR PEOPLE'S choice of schools. Fair's fair, eh?

Virtually all the taxation brought in by the present government has been deeply regressive in that it impacts far more heavily on the less-well-off. Why should we expect that road pricing be any different?

_________________
"Politicians are the same the world over... We build bridges where there aren't any rivers." - Nikita Kruschev

I quite agree. It does, at least, give the lie to anyone claiming the current govt has socialist tendencies. I know my own local MP, whilst a bit green and blinkered in general about cars, finds this side of worrying (he has elements of old labour left in him) and is also concerned about green taxes on flights having a similar inequality impact.

_________________
I won't slave for beggar's pay,
likewise gold and jewels,
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools

Hear, hear. What I simply don't understand is how it has been possible to carry the Labour back-bench into regressive-taxation land. Why aren't they revolting?

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

Some of them are thoroughly revolting - problem is they're not doing anything...

_________________
I won't slave for beggar's pay,
likewise gold and jewels,
but I would slave to learn the way
to sink your ship of fools