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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 14:38 
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Rigpig wrote:
bombus wrote:
People in general haven't changed that much,


Yes they have mate. The attitudes and behaviour of people today are in no way comparable with those of people 30 or even 20 years ago.

Rigpig wrote:
I'm 48.

I'll defer to your experience then. I may be a grumpy old man but I'm easily young enough to be your son (26). ;)

Just one thing though to those who say that people have changed in the last 20 or 30 years. Does this mean that the people who used to have "OK" attitudes and behaviour now no longer do (including, presumably, yourselves!), or does it just mean that the upstarts who have replaced them in terms of age are the ones with problematic attitudes and behaviour?

If it's the latter, don't the older people resent being treated as if they too have this "attitude deficiency"? Or do they regard the ever-increasing restrictions as the lesser of two evils? Presumably they agree with me that by far the ideal solution would be to improve attitudes so that everything could go back to how it was. How we go about doing this is of course open to debate, but this lot certainly aren't doing a good job of it.

I do think we have a lot to learn from our elders, and I resent the lack of respect for them that seems to be built into society, particularly for over-65s (I say that rather than "OAPs" because some of them are perfectly willing and able to work, and I know people in their 90s who are just as sharp as me). It's pretty skindeep and superficial to regard those whose fitness and beauty isn't quite what it was as in any way less useful. It'll happen to us all one day.

Now I'm off to read Scared to Death, which Santa brought, and get even grumpier. I'm expecting great things; I'll post a review in this forum in due course.

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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 16:35 
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bombus wrote:
Just one thing though to those who say that people have changed in the last 20 or 30 years. Does this mean that the people who used to have "OK" attitudes and behaviour now no longer do (including, presumably, yourselves!), or does it just mean that the upstarts who have replaced them in terms of age are the ones with problematic attitudes and behaviour?.


Crikey, thats a wide ranging question mate.

There is a lot about society today that is much, much better than it was in, say, the 60's or 70's. Casual racism was rife - just do a google search for the TV show 'Love They neighbour' :shock: - , we still had an obvious class system and people in general enjoyed a much worse standard of living than they do today. Life took place at a much slower pace than it does today meaning there was less pressure on us, and there was less traffic which meant simple journeys did not quickly break down into marathon jam-sitting sessions.
But, today, we expect more from life even if we don't earn or deserve it and think we have a right to throw a wobbler if we don't get it. We desire so much more and, probably on the whole, work hard to achieve it even though this leaves less time for each other, our families and our social responsibilities.
I don't recall seeing people snarling at one another over things like parking spaces and places in the queue, or experiencing such gratuitous rudeness as playing loud music regardless of the effect it has on those around us.

Young people today are much more 'streetwise' than I ever was but, in my experience working with them as recruits to the RAF, are much less emotionally mature. They do not accept crticism readily and have difficulty living with one another and petty differences soon become major problems.
I think us older adults have difficulty accepting that the world around us is changing and that we either change too or face a struggle against an unstoppable tide. Taking the tightening up in domestic rubbish collection as an example, we used to just throw whatever we wanted into the bin and it conveniently disappeared once a week. Nowadays there is a desire to reduce and control the amount of personal waste we produce and, as a result, this is beginning to introduce restrictions and inconvenience where previously there was none. Folks want to carry on as before and so some resist and complain blaming it all on the council and their petty rules.

And, as a final offering, we often hear the cry 'why not just use common sense' bandied around. Well, if the case of the lass killed on the quad bike, and poor little Madelaine McCann are anything to go by, common sense amongst those we hope would possess it in spades, appears to be in increasingly short supply :cry:

Note to potential respondants: The above is written AS A WHOLE in order to convey my general perceptions of what is right and wrong about todays society. Please resist slicing it up in order to tackle the individual examples I have used, I hope you can all see that they are just examples and not meant to be over-analysed.


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PostPosted: Fri Dec 28, 2007 17:54 
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My feeling is that we live in a society where the solutions to most problems is seen as regulation/enforcement rather than changing behaviour and attitudes. Whilst sometimes changing the rules can modify both behaviour and attitudes, all to often in fails to modify attitudes and hence behavioural changes turn out to be "lip service" only. The important thing we seem to be losing is a sense of individual responsibility for things.

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 14:44 
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Rigpig wrote:
I can't help but think this 'lets blame it on the councils' thing is a pudding that is being well and truly over-egged.

malcolmw wrote:
It seems to me that the blind enforcement of petty rules instead of using a bit of commonsense and discretion is the major change that has happened.


What 'petty' rules are blindly enforced to the detriment of someone who doesn't deserve to have that rule enforced against them then Malcolm?
PS: I suspect we may find we disagree on what constitutes 'petty'.

Well, see if you agree that this council imposed rule is petty or not.

I used to live in an area with recycle bin collections each fortnight. These bins took tins, bottles, paper and plastics. The place I moved to 18months ago has just started this fortnightly recycle collection so I put two plastic bottles in my bin along with the tins, glass and paper. These were carefully left behind as plastic is not accepted for recycling in this area.

There are two issues:

- Why aren't recycling rules easy to understand and the same everywhere?
- Why didn't the binman just put the plastic bottles into the general waste bin rather than ostentatiously leaving them behind?

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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 15:17 
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malcolmw wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
I can't help but think this 'lets blame it on the councils' thing is a pudding that is being well and truly over-egged.

malcolmw wrote:
It seems to me that the blind enforcement of petty rules instead of using a bit of commonsense and discretion is the major change that has happened.


What 'petty' rules are blindly enforced to the detriment of someone who doesn't deserve to have that rule enforced against them then Malcolm?
PS: I suspect we may find we disagree on what constitutes 'petty'.

Well, see if you agree that this council imposed rule is petty or not.

I used to live in an area with recycle bin collections each fortnight. These bins took tins, bottles, paper and plastics. The place I moved to 18months ago has just started this fortnightly recycle collection so I put two plastic bottles in my bin along with the tins, glass and paper. These were carefully left behind as plastic is not accepted for recycling in this area.

There are two issues:

- Why aren't recycling rules easy to understand and the same everywhere?
- Why didn't the binman just put the plastic bottles into the general waste bin rather than ostentatiously leaving them behind?


A similar thing happened to me, I left a polly bag on top of the stuff in the 'green bin' and the whole thing got left with a pre-printed message saying it was contaminated.
I managed to remain philosophical about it (even though I had to do a run to the green skip at the dump to make room in the bin for the grass clippings etc I would generate in the next fortnight) and it now serves as a reminder to check the contents of the bin before I put it out.
So, to answer your questions..
- Our recycling rules are generally easy to understand but I accept they are probably not the same everwhere. My mistake was an oversight.
- You probably aren't the only one who got things wrong. Why should the bin men waste time on their round sorting out your, and everyone else's, mistake? You now know which bin to put what in don't you? :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 16:27 
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bombus wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
bombus wrote:
People in general haven't changed that much,


Yes they have mate. The attitudes and behaviour of people today are in no way comparable with those of people 30 or even 20 years ago.

Rigpig wrote:
I'm 48.

I'll defer to your experience then. I may be a grumpy old man but I'm easily young enough to be your son (26). ;)

Just one thing though to those who say that people have changed in the last 20 or 30 years. Does this mean that the people who used to have "OK" attitudes and behaviour now no longer do (including, presumably, yourselves!), or does it just mean that the upstarts who have replaced them in terms of age are the ones with problematic attitudes and behaviour?

If it's the latter, don't the older people resent being treated as if they too have this "attitude deficiency"? Or do they regard the ever-increasing restrictions as the lesser of two evils? Presumably they agree with me that by far the ideal solution would be to improve attitudes so that everything could go back to how it was. How we go about doing this is of course open to debate, but this lot certainly aren't doing a good job of it.

I do think we have a lot to learn from our elders, and I resent the lack of respect for them that seems to be built into society, particularly for over-65s....


Quite right too. There's far too little respect for all the years of expertise and wisdom embodied in some of the old buffers round here. I've been trying for ages to educate young Riggers (48 indeed!) about the desirability and merits of NSL compliance but he just won't have it. This NSL business is a complete load of bollox but I'm sorry to say he just can't see it. I dunno, maybe the light will dawn for him one of these days.

Best wishes all,
Dave - almost 68, and couldn't care less.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 16:39 
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TripleS wrote:
This NSL business is a complete load of bollox but I'm sorry to say he just can't see it. I dunno, maybe the light will dawn for him one of these days.


Or maybe you'll wind up wrapped around a tree with your mobile phone sticking out of a hole in the side of your head where that old brain of yours once sat and the light will dawn on you. Who knows eh? :wink:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 17:32 
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Rigpig wrote:
TripleS wrote:
This NSL business is a complete load of bollox but I'm sorry to say he just can't see it. I dunno, maybe the light will dawn for him one of these days.


Or maybe you'll wind up wrapped around a tree with your mobile phone sticking out of a hole in the side of your head where that old brain of yours once sat and the light will dawn on you. Who knows eh? :wink:


Nope, forget it. I'm clearly wasting my time on you. Sorry to have intruded. The S of H transplant didn't work in your favour then! :lol:

Still, at least you've got a bit more time to learn what it's all about, and I hope you will in due course. Perhaps you might think a little more about the relationship between speed limits, speeds used - and in what conditions - and the level of safety achieved. Take care anyhow. :)

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 17:42 
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TripleS wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
TripleS wrote:
This NSL business is a complete load of bollox but I'm sorry to say he just can't see it. I dunno, maybe the light will dawn for him one of these days.


Or maybe you'll wind up wrapped around a tree with your mobile phone sticking out of a hole in the side of your head where that old brain of yours once sat and the light will dawn on you. Who knows eh? :wink:


Nope, forget it. I'm clearly wasting my time on you. Sorry to have intruded. The S of H transplant didn't work in your favour then! :lol:

Still, at least you've got a bit more time to learn what it's all about, and I hope you will in due course. Perhaps you might think a little more about the relationship between speed limits, speeds used - and in what conditions - and the level of safety achieved. Take care anyhow. :)



Nope, forget it, I'm clearly wasting my time on you. Sorry to have intruded. Obviously you believe the laws of both physics and the land, and the limitations of human physiology don't apply to you.

Perhaps you might think a little bit more about how fallible the human being really is, and the relationship between an individual with years of bad driving habits to call upon, and the poor sucker they unintentionally wipe out. Take care anyhow :wink:

NB: If you want to keep trying to patronise me Dave, or belittle my thought processes because they don't agree with yours then please feel free to continue. I can sit here all day* and reply in kind :wink:

*Well until the darts starts that is :lol:


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 17:58 
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Riggers - I'm not wishing to be patronising or to belittle your thought processes, but you do seem to want to take some kind of moral position on this, and I feel that's unjustified and unhelpful.

Of course you are in the right and I am in the wrong with regard to the legal aspects of speed limit compliance, but please don't take that to be much of a guide to our relative safety.

.... and I don't think there is much evidence of years of bad habits here either. We would have to meet for that to become clear either way, and that would never do. You might find me to be a nervous passenger.

Enjoy the darts. :)

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2007 18:11 
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TripleS wrote:
Riggers - I'm not wishing to be patronising or to belittle your thought processes, but you do seem to want to take some kind of moral position on this, and I feel that's unjustified and unhelpful.


So if you aren't attempting it, why write it in such a way? You were the one who couldn't resist the sly dig out of nothing, based upon a presumption of my 'moral' stance that I don't recall demonstrating in any recent posts. Perhaps you need to keep up a bit and stop raking over previous arguments, although FWIW I do believe that one of the keystones of this forum is to examine issues from all angles and if that includes the moral one then so be it, its as valid as all the others eh?.

Anyhow, in so far as the issue is concerned, I'm no more attampting to adopt a moral position than you are being an arrogant so-and-so. However, in spite of the fact that we have never met, its quite clear that you don't like me and I don't like you (or each others attitudes or whatever). But before your snide little dig I've managed to keep my council on stuff you've posted, its a pity you seem unable to do the same about me and THAT is unhelpful.

And thanks, I will enjoy the darts.


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PostPosted: Tue Jan 01, 2008 18:09 
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Rigpig wrote:
TripleS wrote:
Riggers - I'm not wishing to be patronising or to belittle your thought processes, but you do seem to want to take some kind of moral position on this, and I feel that's unjustified and unhelpful.


So if you aren't attempting it, why write it in such a way? You were the one who couldn't resist the sly dig out of nothing, based upon a presumption of my 'moral' stance that I don't recall demonstrating in any recent posts. Perhaps you need to keep up a bit and stop raking over previous arguments, although FWIW I do believe that one of the keystones of this forum is to examine issues from all angles and if that includes the moral one then so be it, its as valid as all the others eh?.

Anyhow, in so far as the issue is concerned, I'm no more attampting to adopt a moral position than you are being an arrogant so-and-so. However, in spite of the fact that we have never met, its quite clear that you don't like me and I don't like you (or each others attitudes or whatever). But before your snide little dig I've managed to keep my council on stuff you've posted, its a pity you seem unable to do the same about me and THAT is unhelpful.


Hells bells, have I really come across that badly? Well obviously you think so, but I am somewhat surprised at that.

To me it's certainly not a matter of disliking each other. I wouldn't come to that conclusion without meeting you, and I'd be quite happy to do that and have a drink and a bite to eat together and chat. It's simply a matter of having different views on things. Sometimes I expect you'll be right and I'll be wrong - or it could be t'other way round; or we might both get it wrong. I dunno.

Anyhow I'm sorry if my (perhaps clumsy) sense of humour has seemed like sly digs or snide remarks to you. As a matter of fact I haven't done much posting here in recent times, but it doesn't seem to have taken me long to cause an upset. Apologies. Perhaps I'd better try and do something useful elsewhere. It's no problem. Take care.

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 16:58 
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back to the main post thread.... I wanted to add one laughable example of how the council gets it terribly wrong.

Anyone know Falfield just off the M5 near Bristol. Well the council deicded that what the world needed was traffic lights on all traffic coming off/on or past the motorway junction. In their wisdom they thought they'd be nice and have them only part time, so we can control the morning/evening commuter traffic. Well it turned out with the lights on at commuter time, the traffic backs up so far (miles) that they are unusable. so now the are turned off at commuter times, and on all other times, yep even 3am, when everybody is in bed, but you, sat staring at the most potinless red light in the west county.

And yes I have driven though them many many times on red. I just treat is as a normal junction, the way it used to be.[/b]


as I side note,
I have just raised a petition for traffic cameras to have countdown timers, which I'll post the link if/when its approved. Whilst browsing I found these which I think will be agreeable to some members here.

Pre warning ambers to aid safety
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/earlyamberlights/

Did you know you're not allowed to pull forward over the line at a red light if an emergency vehicle needs to pass?
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/Rule213RedLight/

the ol America turn right on red rule here in the uk anyone?
http://petitions.pm.gov.uk/turnleft/


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PostPosted: Wed Jan 02, 2008 17:58 
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purplemonkey wrote:
as I side note,
I have just raised a petition for traffic cameras to have countdown timers, which I'll post the link if/when its approved. Whilst browsing I found these which I think will be agreeable to some members here.

Mmm, some kind of count down would be good, but the trouble with that is that controllers are not purely timed. They are input driven, and the time left to wait can go up as well as down. Especially when they have "bus priority" type systems.
A progress bar style device might work, but it would go up as well as down.

Also current controllers wouldn't have an output to support this.

But it would be a nice idea.

Although I prefer the idea that red = give way and something else (two flashing reds?) should mean stop.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 12:39 
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Rigpig wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
bombus wrote:
People in general haven't changed that much,


Yes they have mate. The attitudes and behaviour of people today are in no way comparable with those of people 30 or even 20 years ago.

I certainly agree with that. But it begs the question, why?


Social engineering on a national scale.
Changes to the education system; increasing tendency to refuse to tell individuals when they are in the wrong for fear of appearing dictatorial.
Changes in the aspirations and financial status of individuals.
Emphasis on the rights of the individual, ergo more selfishness and less altruism.
More aggressive marketing by the commercial sector making us more avaricious and materialistic
Drawing back of old taboos, less personally imposed restrictions on behaviour


I suspect imposition of many more rules without a proportional increase in enforcement is a huge factor.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 15:01 
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Johnnytheboy wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
bombus wrote:
People in general haven't changed that much,


Yes they have mate. The attitudes and behaviour of people today are in no way comparable with those of people 30 or even 20 years ago.

I certainly agree with that. But it begs the question, why?


Social engineering on a national scale.
Changes to the education system; increasing tendency to refuse to tell individuals when they are in the wrong for fear of appearing dictatorial.
Changes in the aspirations and financial status of individuals.
Emphasis on the rights of the individual, ergo more selfishness and less altruism.
More aggressive marketing by the commercial sector making us more avaricious and materialistic
Drawing back of old taboos, less personally imposed restrictions on behaviour


I suspect imposition of many more rules without a proportional increase in enforcement is a huge factor.

Personally, i think it's the imposition of many more stupid and pathetic rules...

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 18:58 
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BottyBurp wrote:
Johnnytheboy wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
BottyBurp wrote:
Rigpig wrote:
bombus wrote:
People in general haven't changed that much,


Yes they have mate. The attitudes and behaviour of people today are in no way comparable with those of people 30 or even 20 years ago.

I certainly agree with that. But it begs the question, why?


Social engineering on a national scale.
Changes to the education system; increasing tendency to refuse to tell individuals when they are in the wrong for fear of appearing dictatorial.
Changes in the aspirations and financial status of individuals.
Emphasis on the rights of the individual, ergo more selfishness and less altruism.
More aggressive marketing by the commercial sector making us more avaricious and materialistic
Drawing back of old taboos, less personally imposed restrictions on behaviour


I suspect imposition of many more rules without a proportional increase in enforcement is a huge factor.

Personally, i think it's the imposition of many more stupid and pathetic rules...


Peoples attitude towards silly rules (whatever these may be) may have changed, but its not the rules themselves that have made them change in the first place. Its utterly impossible, and the product of some creative and wishful thinking if I may say, to try and attribute such a sea-change in our national persona to such a narrow and specific cause.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 19:02 
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Rigpig wrote:
Peoples attitude towards silly rules (whatever these may be) may have changed, but its not the rules themselves that have made them change in the first place. Its utterly impossible, and the product of some creative and wishful thinking if I may say, to try and attribute such a sea-change in our national persona to such a narrow and specific cause.

Although it's entirely to be expected that, the sillier rules have got, the more people are likely to ignore them, and to ignore more sensible rules at the same time.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 19:35 
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Really riggers?

Think about the really petty rules, like a lot of the stuff trotted out under the banner of health and safety, and then wonder why the authority line is becoming blurred in many people's minds.


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PostPosted: Mon Jan 07, 2008 19:43 
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RobinXe wrote:
Really riggers?

Think about the really petty rules, like a lot of the stuff trotted out under the banner of health and safety, and then wonder why the authority line is becoming blurred in many people's minds.


Yes Robin. Recalling that the original proposition was that people have changed over the last 30 years, it is far more likely that wider social factors have had nearly all the influence, and what we now term 'silly rules' are only recently starting to bite.

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