Safe Speed Forums

It’s my understanding that Brake lights are activated by the initial movement of the Brake pedal and are illuminated before any detectable vehicle braking occurs.

My idea is to use something more ‘intelligent’ like an inertia switch, which would detect slowing of the vehicle rather than the presence of someone’s foot on the pedal.

This would immediately solve two problems:

- Comfort Braking. This I consider to be a blatant indication of poor driving skill. Somehow, these drivers find reassurance from placing their foot on the pedal when approaching bends, however, there is no perceptible slowing. Unfortunately, it unsettles the followers.

- Stationary Braking. People wait in queues with their foot jammed on the brake. A high-level row of high-intensity LED lights are then boring into the retinas of the guy behind. What ever happened to handbrakes?

_________________
It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

Brake lights reinforce the fact that you are stopped, as does flashing them --lets dozy know you are stopped so as not to try parking in your boot.
Like the idea of inertia brake lighting - except - when in a line of traffic,i remove foot from throttle to slow down - lighting brake lights and possibly upsetting bloke behind.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Yeah, I can see that but isn't it still advocated that one should apply handbrake and put car into neutral when stopped? That implies no foot on brake.
Hazard lights are available if a warning is thought necessary.

_________________
It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

There's nothing new under the sun!

Ogle did a concept car in the (I think) 1960s where it had about a dozen brake lights. The harder the driver braked, the more lights came on. I think it was done on pedal effort rather than deceleration though. Unfortunately, EC lighting regs killed it off. In fact for a long time, we had the daft situation where one set of EC regs DEMANDED a high level stop light and the other set PROHIBITED them! Fortunately, the authorities (in this country at least) were sensible enough to turn a blind eye. Now the two sets of regs have been "harmonized" so it's not a problem any more.

These days, the car knows the deceleration anyway and I see an increasing number of cars that flash their brake lights above a certain level of deceleration. After the high-level stop light fiasco, the regulators introduced a clause whereby a manufacturer could apply for exemptions if he came up with an idea to improve safety which wasn't actually allowed in the regs. I think a fair few manufacturers have now gone down this route and had their brake lights flash at decelerations above 0.8G Others tend to activate the hazards under similar circumstances (which used to pi55 me off no end when indulging in the odd bit of "spirited" driving)!

Applying handbrake also assumes that person following will stop - after two rear enders -once at lights ,the other at an island ( over a good time span)- i prefer to presume that they will not stop, untill i see them do so.

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Is that the only intervention - flashing or applying the hazards under certain high g forces?

Is there still some sort of microswitch control from the pedal to turn them on initially?

_________________
It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

New BMWs have



I would not be surprised if other manufacturers do something similar.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

But is that the same as deceleration force?

If they are brighter the harder you push on the pedal, that wouldn't necessarily save my eyesight when I'm stopped behind one.

And I still maintain they needn't come on if no deceleration is occuring.

_________________
It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

On a driving course recently (well, must be nearly 2 years ago now) they advocated - in standing traffic on a motorway - stopping nearly a full car length from the car in front and leaving foot pressed on foot brake. The reasons given were:

1. Brake lights on - makes back of car more obvious.
2. Brakes on - if shunted, you will be pushed forward less far
3. Long gap between you and car in front - if you are shunted forward, you will not hit car in front, reducing the chance of "knock for knock" insurance claims.

This works mostly if you are at the back of the queue, but in terms of avoiding the knock for knock, anywere in the queue could be at risk?

_________________
COAST Not just somewhere to keep a beach.

A young loner on a crusade to champion the cause of the innocent, the helpless, the powerless, in a world of criminals who operate above the law.

All sensible stuff - but if I was at the back of a stationary queue on a motorway, my first choice for a warning sign would be hazards.

_________________
It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

When static there is at least a chance that the first stage will use dimmer lights (I suspect they will be LEDs - different issue), I might keep an eye out for them to find out.

The safety aspect of showing brake lights aside your idea would make me feel a bit better about driving my wife's auto. I do tend to sit on the brake pedal when stopped either because I do not trust the handbrake to hold in drive or because you have to press the brake pedal to get it from neutral to drive anyway. It would add complexity to what is currently a very simple system though.

_________________
Driving fast is for a particular time and place, I can do it I just only do it occasionally because I am a gentleman.
- James May

Crikey yes!!!!

They just work like normal brake lights most of the time.

First of all I frequently chose to illuminate brake lights to warn vehicles behind of a hazard ahead. I do this (of course) by resting my foot on the brake, without actually braking. This technique is invaluable to open up gaps on motorways when 'it's all stopping' ahead. If brake lights came on with a g-force sensor, I couldn't do that and I'd be seriously miffed.

On the 'comfort braking' thing, I reckon it's potentially a good technique because it can save 0.2 seconds (moving foot to brake) at those instants when vision is shortest. It fits in well with trail-braking. I'm quite a fan, personally, of trail braking because of the benefits in turn in bite and late adjustability. See http://www.safespeed.org.uk/braking.html . I can't go as far as recommending trail braking because it's hard to learn well (impossible on the road I reckon) and if you stuff it up a spin is likely.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I sometimes put the brake lights on because I want the person behind to think that I'm slowing down more than I actually am... I'm not sure how to explain it. But I'm sure there's a reason for it and it makes sense when I do it.

My car puts the hazard warning lights on automatically if the speed drops too much too quickly, as the local camera partnership have on video from the other day.

I like to be in control myself. Sometimes I'll sit with the brake lights on, like at the end of a queue when there's a bend behind. If I see someone coming from behind I'll probably release the brake then press it again.

Also at roundabouts. If I think "there's a gap, I'll go... Oh no, wait, there isn't" I always put the brake lights on! Helps the driver behind remember that I'm still there and maybe they shouldn't drive into me.

I have wondered about brake lights which change their brightness/amount with pressure/breaking effort. I wonder if they would do any good?

_________________
Andrew.

I'm definitely with Paul on the 'comfort braking'. Search out the phrase "cover the brake" and you'll find it is something I do routinely when approaching an area of reduced visivility or increasing hazard density. It can turn a hazard realisation from a panic stop into a well-controlled firm stop or, in the limit, a hit into a miss.

This reminds me of something I've been meaning to post for a while. I'll start a new thread and call it "artificially slow discomfort".

Touching the pedal to bring on the lights to deter a tailgater is a plus point.

As to brake lights when stationary, some manufacturers lights ARE too bright, especially if it's wet.
Maybe a strobe when staionary would reduce the blinging effect? I'd still like to have the option of having brake lights on when stationary for the reaons others have outlined.

I often felt that the old James Bond smokescreen trick at the flick of a switch would be handy to deter tailgaters - I'D soon drop well back if I thought the car in front was just about to drop all it's oil - maybe tailgaters would not be that bright though!

_________________
Time to take responsibility for our actions.. and don't be afraid of speaking out!

Ok. I can see some of the arguements being put forward - so maybe a pressure sensor would be better.



I don't think we are talking about the same thing. See http://www.iam.org.uk/pressroom/drivingtips/Driving+tip+46.htm

_________________
It's tricky doing nothing - you never know when you're finished

That tip is about anticipation of reducing speed to a KNOWN hazard. What I (and I believe Paul) is talking about is covering the brake in anticipation of a potential unforeseen hazard or to deal with a temporary increase in potential hazard density. The latter can be easily mistaken for the former by less-discerning/less observant motorists (and I am not remotely suggesting or implying anyone here falls into that category).

Sorry, yes... not the same thing, but cousins related by degree. You might say 'the mildest form' of trail braking fits the comfort braking pattern.

I'm not sure I really believe that the comfort braking as defined by the IAM exists. They say: "...some drivers have the habit of "comfort braking " - touching the brakes to enable themselves feel better, even if they have no intention of slowing the car to any measurable degree."

I'm not shy of brushing the brake as vision shortens, but it certainly isn't to 'make me feel better'- it's preparedness, in case braking is required.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

I tell you what though...

I've seen people behind come too close when I've simply lifted off especially in lower gears and especially in diesels.

If they are in an automatic / petrol engined vehicle / higher gear they may have needed to brake while I did not...

So perhaps a g-force second switch for the brake lights would help where engine braking is (let's say) above typical values.

_________________
Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety