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 Post subject: Yoof detention
PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:53 
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Not strictly a driving related issue

But

How about this.

Instead of "Yoof custedy" or whatever it is that goes on these days we go back a bit to "Secure educational facilities" The sentance is not a specific period of time. It is reaching an educational standard. EG "You will remain here untill you achieve a minimum of 3 'B''s at A level (or whatever)"

I suspect that many (if not most) "Yoof offenders" are people who have poor domestic enviroments and have also missed out on education for whatever reasons. Unless the social and educational deficit is addressed these individuals will face a lifetime of crime and underachievement.

"State boarding school" might well be a benefit in these cases

:wink:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 12:58 
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What if they're just as thick as pigsh*t? They'd be there for ever :roll:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 13, 2008 13:18 
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PeterE wrote:
What if they're just as thick as pigsh*t? They'd be there for ever :roll:


Thats the point, its self regulating!

Only the ones that are capable of being reformed ever get to leave! :lol:

On a more serious note. There would have to be some way of assessing what each "Pupil" may be eventually capable of so that the challange is tough and demanding but not completly impossible.

"Passing out" needs to be a positive experiance.

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 22:51 
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PeterE wrote:
What if they're just as thick as pigsh*t? They'd be there for ever :roll:


Most people can learn at least one skill which makes them valuable as an employee. It doesn't all have to be about qualifications and exams :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Jan 14, 2008 23:26 
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R1Nut wrote:
PeterE wrote:
What if they're just as thick as pigsh*t? They'd be there for ever :roll:


Most people can learn at least one skill which makes them valuable as an employee. It doesn't all have to be about qualifications and exams :wink:


Then the training programme would have to be very wide and varied. It is a good idea, though might be a bit expensive. Though it should not be too hard for the money to be found. Peter Hain managed to find £100,000, after all. :twisted:

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PostPosted: Thu Feb 07, 2008 16:23 
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R1Nut wrote:
PeterE wrote:
What if they're just as thick as pigsh*t? They'd be there for ever :roll:


Most people can learn at least one skill which makes them valuable as an employee. It doesn't all have to be about qualifications and exams :wink:


That's very true. A friend who I have known sice we were at primary school left school at 16 with no qualifications because he hated the work and really had no aptitude for exams. He is now one of the best plumbers you can find and doing very well for himself.


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 19:01 
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PeterE wrote:
What if they're just as thick as pigsh*t? They'd be there for ever :roll:


What, like this guy? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8ZZXslsLDLs


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 Post subject: Re: Yoof detention
PostPosted: Wed Jul 09, 2008 20:36 
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That’s funny


I agree some kids do not have a good start in life, in fact they have F$$ked up start.
We wonder why they are f"£ked up. :roll:
How we deal with them is also a problem. There should be no excuses only understanding; I feel people in education do not understand the difference.

We should not roll over and let them do what they want, but we should not just throw them into prison, because it does not (in my view work). More carrot less stick I see, you will be surprised how well prise works (with a stick use fairly and reasonably) on those who are not used to it.

A lot of these children need to be taught how to socialise etc, etc because their parents have not taught them properly. But solutions along this path are hard and take time. In conclusion Dusty I er agree.

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 Post subject: Re: Yoof detention
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 00:08 
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ree.t wrote:
A lot of these children need to be taught how to socialise etc, etc because their parents have not taught them properly. But solutions along this path are hard and take time. In conclusion Dusty I er agree.


This is very true. By now we're on our second and 3rd generation of chavs, kids who have grown up with unemployed scrounging layabout parents (who probably only had them in order to get bumped up the council house queue). The parents treat them like crap and the only thing they've learned is how to scrounge off the dole, and supplement this with petty crime or small-time drug dealing.

I was watching a TV programme a while back where 3 such kids were sent off to work with the Forestry Comission in some remote part of the countryside and learn how to cut down trees, presumably with the promise of "you'll be on the telly, innit", of the 3 one of them just wasn't prepared to put any effort in, one of the gave it a go at first and gave up as soon as it got started and the third one eventually got stuck in and rather liked the job towards the end. The programme ended with him deciding he wanted to stay in Liverpool, but passing the exam to become a qualified tree surgeon and is apparently doing quite well for himself now. At the start of the programme they were either permanently unemployed or had never held a job down for more than a month or so.


I guess there are always going to be some who will remain as worthless scum their whole lives but some would do quite well given the opportunity. Prison isn't going to help them since the only skills you learn there are from the hardened criminals you share a cell with and the current approach to community service (basically: Paint that old lady's fence and say you're sorry) doesn't achieve much either. The whole thing really does need to be about education.

Of course I'm sure the Daily Mail will throw a fit, so you'd need to pitch it as a ploy to make it harder for the Polish to get jobs here, or something.

Just make sure you don't teach them how to be civil servants! :)


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 Post subject: Re: Yoof detention
PostPosted: Wed Jul 16, 2008 15:26 
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Dusty wrote:
Not strictly a driving related issue

But

How about this.

Instead of "Yoof custedy" or whatever it is that goes on these days we go back a bit to "Secure educational facilities" The sentance is not a specific period of time. It is reaching an educational standard. EG "You will remain here untill you achieve a minimum of 3 'B''s at A level (or whatever)"

I suspect that many (if not most) "Yoof offenders" are people who have poor domestic enviroments and have also missed out on education for whatever reasons. Unless the social and educational deficit is addressed these individuals will face a lifetime of crime and underachievement.

"State boarding school" might well be a benefit in these cases
Quote:


Why is it that education to many means go to school and get an 'A' level? , surely if that is a majority belief then there is yet another social and education problem there already. These yoofs :D need parental guidance, they need direction, something to aim for, they need education of a very different kind before simply forcing them to get 'A's and 'B's. There are a whole host of things people can do to have a fruitful and positive life without the need for 'A' levels, often helping some of these kids to simply read is enough to change their lives. Others with a more entrenched ferrel family life style need education of another kind to help them see a more positive life ahead.The society they live in should be a major focus for attention and direction. Youth custody will be necessary in some cases and I believe a military style of custody would do these kids some good. Having educational qualifications in this day and age doesnt always help in gaining employment, nor does it help with social issues. there is a history of people making good without education and comming from poor or deprived backgrounds simply because they had different lives/values and focus. The greedy and selfish values of the modern western world are in part resposible for the youth of today as is the deterioration of family structure,discipline,morality,values and principle. Your last comment really encourages them :roll: What you are telling them in that comment is unless you get an education you are f****d and all you can be is a crook.What deficit are we talking about? There are more kids with educational quals then there has ever been in history and enough of them ending up criminals, I left school early and did very well for myself thankyou as did millions of others in the past just like me who wanted to work rather than swot! There are different ways to educate and different directions in life to follow, encouragement helps, dictat doesnt.We home educate our kids to the absolute condemnation by some yet the facts speak loudly, more kids home educated do far better than those following the traditional structured and directed education system for the masses and follow on by further education in university .Attention/guidance/encouragement and Goals are what s missing from most of these yoofs lives, 'A' levels and the like can wait or even be bypassed. Intelligence is rarely whats missing.


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 Post subject: Re: Yoof detention
PostPosted: Thu Jul 17, 2008 22:38 
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We've had a turnround (almost a revolution ) in training - years ago , young Jim's dad had a vplumber matew who needed an apprentice - so like it or not Jim became a plumber - (whether or not he was inclined that way was of no concern ,neither was it any concern that he might be a good tradesman - he got stuck in the job).Years later a new idea hit the trades -let's test prospective apprentices for the trade they could be good at - and hey presto -it worked . Enter stage left a new regime - throw them all in -sink or swim .
Nowadays are we seeing a return to the days of fitting an apprentice up to the trade he/she might be best at --only time will tell . Me - in my old age ,I'm looking forward (as a dirty old man ,of course ) of seeing a woman plumber stuck inside a kitchen sink :bounce1: :bounce1:
Mind you -I'll still wait to see some female elictrician ( watch our resident sparks light up ) try to tell me why our lights don't work ,and quote the theory

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 Post subject: Re: Yoof detention
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 21:18 
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botach wrote:
We've had a turnround (almost a revolution ) in training - years ago , young Jim's dad had a vplumber matew who needed an apprentice - so like it or not Jim became a plumber - (whether or not he was inclined that way was of no concern ,neither was it any concern that he might be a good tradesman - he got stuck in the job).Years later a new idea hit the trades -let's test prospective apprentices for the trade they could be good at - and hey presto -it worked . Enter stage left a new regime - throw them all in -sink or swim .
Nowadays are we seeing a return to the days of fitting an apprentice up to the trade he/she might be best at --only time will tell . Me - in my old age ,I'm looking forward (as a dirty old man ,of course ) of seeing a woman plumber stuck inside a kitchen sink :bounce1: :bounce1:
Mind you -I'll still wait to see some female elictrician ( watch our resident sparks light up ) try to tell me why our lights don't work ,and quote the theory


yeah but imagine her hair and the complaining if she gets a shock! :lol:


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 Post subject: Re: Yoof detention
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 21:20 
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Lum wrote:
I guess there are always going to be some who will remain as worthless scum their whole lives but some would do quite well given the opportunity. Prison isn't going to help them since the only skills you learn there are from the hardened criminals you share a cell with and the current approach to community service (basically: Paint that old lady's fence and say you're sorry) doesn't achieve much either. The whole thing really does need to be about education.


the entire welfare system needs overhauling.


Anyone signing on through recent unemployment should be aided (mortgage/rent etc) for a limited period while they seek work. After that they will be expected to report to a work centre daily, where they will be tasked with everything from street cleaning, looking after the elderly with home visits, labour-intensive council building projects etc, whatever their abilities lend themselves to, being trained where necessary. Single mothers can staff nurseries so other single mothers can attend work groups. These nurseries will also give the youngsters education and should set them on the right path, instead of many growing up in a deprived, neglected environment. Those who refuse to comply without sufficient reason will have their benefits cut, which will of course mean taking kids into care etc. evan if theres less work than there are people claiming, they'll still have to sign on 8am sharp every morning before going home again. This will make claiming benefits less attractive as a lifestyle choice. The benefit system will also allow for people to seek short term contracts, labouring, fuit picking etc, suspending benefit for the duration of the work. currently this is really complicated and too much effort- once you're claiming there's no point considering short term work unless it's cash on the side, at which point the system criminalises you- the system should serve the people, not vice versa. This will benefit business with an available workforce, the government with reduced handouts, people can earn a little for themselves, and might decide they like that. Right now we have (mow many?) million claiming dole while farmers are complaining there's no fruit pickers cos the polish are going home.

As for jailed criminals- work gangs and coal mines. we have what, 500 years of coal with the overiding obstacle being labour costs? I just found us that labour force.

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 Post subject: Re: Yoof detention
PostPosted: Tue Jul 29, 2008 23:29 
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I see what you're getting at, though you may wish to word it more carefully before pitching it to the general public as you're conjuring up images of Dickensian-era workhouses here, also the idea of the state dictating what career you end up assigned to is not an idea that sits easily with me.

You point about the farmers is an interesting one. I suspect most of these million unemployed live in cities or suburbs a long way from the nearest fruit farm, any improved earnings from taking on a seasonal job like that will be obliterated in transport costs so may as well just stay on the dole.

The fact of the matter is there are some parts of the country where there is just no work. My stepbrother has recently finished full-time education and is unable to find a job, even the local McDonalds had 500 applicants for a single position. I don't think he's ready to leave home just yet (like he can afford it as an unemployed teenager) but whilst my family lives where it does he's basically screwed. All the further education courses he wanted to do were oversubscribed and thus he got rejected from those.

In a years time he'll be no different, on paper, from all those chavs who have no intention of ever holding a job and for the state to then turn around and say "right, from now on you're a toilet cleaner" seems somewhat harsh.


Oh and you wont get the coal mines re-opened. It's OMG! Fossil Fuel. Plus I suspect the residents in mining areas will be somewhat resentful of their old jobs being given to hardened criminals, or at least unhappy about hardened criminals being shipped into their area daily.


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 Post subject: Re: Yoof detention
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 07:48 
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Lum wrote:
the idea of the state dictating what career you end up assigned to is not an idea that sits easily with me.


Thats a little harsh way of interpreting it. I'm all in favour of people choosing career paths, helping people train in their chosen path, and when they claim dole, trying to make full use of any abilities they have. I'm not in favour of professional oprah-addicts living on my cash.

Quote:
You point about the farmers is an interesting one. I suspect most of these million unemployed live in cities or suburbs a long way from the nearest fruit farm, any improved earnings from taking on a seasonal job like that will be obliterated in transport costs so may as well just stay on the dole.


Yes, all those largely empty trains leaving the cities in the mornings and returning at night. Commuting against the flow has many benefits, I'm sure a deal can be worked out.

Quote:
The fact of the matter is there are some parts of the country where there is just no work. My stepbrother has recently finished full-time education and is unable to find a job, even the local McDonalds had 500 applicants for a single position. I don't think he's ready to leave home just yet (like he can afford it as an unemployed teenager) but whilst my family lives where it does he's basically screwed. All the further education courses he wanted to do were oversubscribed and thus he got rejected from those.

In a years time he'll be no different, on paper, from all those chavs who have no intention of ever holding a job and for the state to then turn around and say "right, from now on you're a toilet cleaner" seems somewhat harsh.


I wish all the best for your brother, but I'm sure if he's got his head screwed on right he'll understand the concept of there's "no free lunches." And if he's got skills and aptitude he won't be cleaning bogs.

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Oh and you wont get the coal mines re-opened. It's OMG! Fossil Fuel. Plus I suspect the residents in mining areas will be somewhat resentful of their old jobs being given to hardened criminals, or at least unhappy about hardened criminals being shipped into their area daily.


the coal will be painted green and called eco-coal. Eviromentalists buy any old rubbish if it's sold right. seriously, I'm not convinced there's too much mileage left in eco-mentalism, a house of cards always collapses in time. Ex coal-miners will be needed to train and supervise the convicts.

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 Post subject: Re: Yoof detention
PostPosted: Wed Jul 30, 2008 23:54 
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Yes, all those largely empty trains leaving the cities in the mornings and returning at night. Commuting against the flow has many benefits, I'm sure a deal can be worked out.


I've often thought that empty trains should somehow be used to advantage. I like your idea, but I have historically ruled it out as, generally, the empty trains are on a mission :) They go non-stop, hell for leather, back to the start, so they can then return, stopiing strategically on the way back in to the city (in the morning) and back outward (at night). Apart from the village at the far end of the line, all the others are going to have to miss out. Or can it be made to work?


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