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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 15:39 
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prof beard wrote:
A thought:

How about making all speed limits "advisory but contributory"?

By this I mean that you have posted speed limits which are set at (as far as can be done with a fixed figure) a "reasonable" speed of the road under normal prevailing conditions, but which can be exceeded without penalty...

BUT if a driver commits another driving offence or causes an accident whilst exceeding the advisory limit, the penalty is appropriately increased. My thought is this would emphasise "appropriate speed for the conditions" whilst giving some level of guidance for the incompetent or irresponsible.


I very much agree with that, and it is something I've advocated previously.

The principle should be that exceeding a speed limit is not, in itself, a punishable offence, but in the event of an accident a court may take it into account and judge you more harshly.

This would bring it into line with the effect of disregarding the SHOULD and SHOULD NOT items mentioned in the Highway Code.

Best wishes all,
Dave.


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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 16:01 
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Dixie wrote:
In the event of an accident, it seams nowadays the first thing anyone says is that people were driving to fast.

I could feel my knee jerking as I read your post. :)

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PostPosted: Wed Apr 09, 2008 16:32 
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Off the cuff ideas, I will not be offended if you savage them.

Should there be guidelines that apply to doing >NSL?

e.g.

max speed when passing a SC junction.
max speed when passing a vehicle travelling in the opposite direction, SC again.


If exceeding the speed limit is not an offence would having in car black boxes be of benefit to prove you were not driving too fast if an accident occurs?

Should a black box be a requirement for exceeding the limit?

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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 00:12 
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I really like those ideas!

The "advisory" thing gives the motorist choice to exercise judgement. I think that treating the motorist like someone with a modicum of intelligence will lead t omore of them BEHAVING like someone with a modicum of intelligence! I wonder whether this is part of the reason why German road KSIs aren't as bad as ours desipte large sections of derestricted motorways?

I can't think of other examples of this kind of policy but there must be some. The closest that springs to mind at present is from the boating world where, in the event of an accident and subsequent apportioning of insurance payouts, it tends to go in the favour of the most highly qualified skipper involved - even though there is no compulsory training / testing requirement for skippers. This seems to provide a good incentive for people to pursue the voluntary qualifications available.

I'd very seriously consider even allowing a "black box" in my car if the "carrot" was an "advisory" speed limit. I, (and despite what some of the trolls seem to think!) a great many other drivers would be happy to take responsibility for my own actions behind the wheel!


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PostPosted: Thu Apr 10, 2008 21:01 
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Dixie wrote:
How would anyone know you were breaking the advisory limit?

In the event of an accident, it seams nowadays the first thing anyone says is that people were driving to fast.


The same way they currently know if you were breaking the compulsory one?
(Police and crash analysis in most cases)


As you know speed related crashes are actually normally "too fast for the conditions" - with MOST below the limit - anyway. I thought that perhaps using breaking an advisory limit as an "aggravating factor" rather than an offence in its own right would focus enforcement more effectively, but penalise the truly reckless.

It would also render cameras redundant?

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PostPosted: Sat Apr 12, 2008 18:53 
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I have been going over and over the idea of a motorway without a speed limit for a good few weeks now. The emphasis should be moved to a "speed appropiate for the conditions" approach whereby if for a very exagerated example a guy is going 60 in snow and heavy traffic then they would be hit with a dangerous driving conviction, but if the motorway was nearly empty and they were going 120 then that would be legal. It just seems such a shame, even my dad's 1993 Corolla can cruise at 100 comfortably, to think that when conditions permit you are only legally allowed to go 70 and have to constantly check all around for cops even if the conditions permit going faster than the limit.

I don't know if any of you guys saw it but on B.B.C. Four a few months ago there was an interesting mini series about the early years of the motorway. Back then there was no speed limit, just as I am pushing for now. It's really ironic that we went backwards. They had interviews when the motorways were new with people saying all about how fast they went. One lady said she had been upto 115! Fast for those days. Anyway, after a series of what were presumably not properly investigated horrific accidents, in a knee jerk reaction they imposed the stupid 70 M.P.H. limit that we face now. Instead of educating the people about choosing an appropiate speed for the conditions. Typical, ay?


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 09:03 
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IIRC the nasty accidents the media picked up on that saddled us with :70: were all fog-related too.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 20:19 
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All very good points.

I think if we did decide to delimit suitable roads, it would be best done in stages.

So first of all a quiet motorway, let's say the M45 would be derestricted first, then busier motorways, then a road like the A14 or A55, then finally more mainstream roads.

Many roads that are currently NSL would of course remain restricted at 60 or 70. Others could be increased a bit - plenty of rural S2s are good for 70 or 80 in good conditions.


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PostPosted: Sun Apr 13, 2008 22:24 
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Lenzar wrote:
All very good points.

I think if we did decide to delimit suitable roads, it would be best done in stages.


I vote for the M58 (I think I may have already suggested this one before today).

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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Mon Apr 14, 2008 00:21 
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Hi Lenzar :welcome:

I don't know if I missed something, but I'm interested to know more about this..

Lenzar wrote:
They are after all designed for 120mph


Is this true? Where did you get that from? :?

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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 16:58 
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Flynn wrote:
It just seems such a shame, even my dad's 1993 Corolla can cruise at 100 comfortably


I bet it can, I bet most cars will.

I'll also bet that most drivers can't.


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sun Apr 20, 2008 23:10 
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mpaton2004 wrote:
Flynn wrote:
It just seems such a shame, even my dad's 1993 Corolla can cruise at 100 comfortably


I bet it can, I bet most cars will.

I'll also bet that most drivers can't.


Really? That's quite a generalisation there! I would have thought there would be times and conditions where "most" drivers in most cars WOULD be able to cruise safely at "the ton".


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 06:18 
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Mole wrote:
mpaton2004 wrote:
Flynn wrote:
It just seems such a shame, even my dad's 1993 Corolla can cruise at 100 comfortably


I bet it can, I bet most cars will.

I'll also bet that most drivers can't.


Really? That's quite a generalisation there! I would have thought there would be times and conditions where "most" drivers in most cars WOULD be able to cruise safely at "the ton".

There's a difference between cruising safely and cruising comfortably IMHO. mpaton2004, just to confirm, are you saying that you believe that most drivers could never cruise comfortably at 100mph, even when conditions were perfect and nothing was otherwise going wrong, and leaving aside potential safety issues if something was to go wrong (e.g. stopping distances, blowouts etc)? Do you believe that they simply don't have the skill to handle a vehicle properly at 100mph on a good, empty motorway?

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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Mon Apr 21, 2008 08:00 
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Presumably when one's machine control only involves bushing buttons to engage various autopilot holds, one starts to lose faith in human handling abilities :P

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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 10:44 
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As with pilots? :shock: :lol:

That's why I won't fly............


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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Tue Apr 22, 2008 21:15 
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As with some pilots... :wink:

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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 07:58 
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bombus wrote:
There's a difference between cruising safely and cruising comfortably IMHO. mpaton2004, just to confirm, are you saying that you believe that most drivers could never cruise comfortably at 100mph, even when conditions were perfect and nothing was otherwise going wrong, and leaving aside potential safety issues if something was to go wrong (e.g. stopping distances, blowouts etc)? Do you believe that they simply don't have the skill to handle a vehicle properly at 100mph on a good, empty motorway?

Since he never bothered to answer ... I'll volunteer!
The average American driver lacks the skill to cruise at 100MpH in any manner. I find this disgraceful.
There are a number of causes - ever encroaching nanny culture, the fact that the term 'driver education' is probably the best example of an American oxymoron, road design that is increasingly infected by traffic calming ... if I spend more time thinking about the causes, I'll get very upset.

Some other things unnerve me about the average American driver (when it comes to driving well, we're a bunch of American'ts):
1) does not wish to possess this level of skill, even it it were for free, yet is willing to spend several thousand dollars on safety features and technologies in an attempt to make up for his lack of skill
2) does not wish others to possess this skill either - whatever the real motive for this urge, it is hidden by a) saying things like 'imagine the carnage if such an accident happened at such a speed', 'who wants / needs to drive that fast', 'teaching people to drive that well is, in itself, dangerous', and other such tripe ... and b) designing traffic enforcement with a tendency to punish those who excercise their abilities over those who behave as the rest of the herd
3) an increasing number prefer being able to multitask while driving (feel free to lay much of the blame on the torque converter / automatic transmission)

To provide a piece of counterpoint, the ability to drive well at speeds above 65MpH becomes easier to find the further one gets from a major city, which highlights corollaries regarding driving speeds, population densities, and traffic densities.

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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 08:53 
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If anyone wanted proof that people can drive quickly and safely you have surely only to look at Germany.

Although I have no personal experience over there, I am told, for instance, that if it starts to rain they automatically slow down. They seem able to drive according to the conditions so why can't others follow there good example?

Is it better training or just something in the German culture or psyche?

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 09:36 
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Big Tone wrote:
If anyone wanted proof that people can drive quickly and safely you have surely only to look at Germany.

Although I have no personal experience over there, I am told, for instance, that if it starts to rain they automatically slow down. They seem able to drive according to the conditions so why can't others follow there good example?

Is it better training or just something in the German culture or psyche?


Do they simply have more practice at judging a safe speed?

On our motorways the speed limit, which most drivers are probably using as a guide to set their speed from, is often so much lower than the maximum safe speed that when conditions deteriorate drivers may not be aware that they are now travelling too fast.

Do German drivers spend significant time on unrestricted autobahns or could many of them never use one?

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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 16:00 
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Big Tone wrote:
If anyone wanted proof that people can drive quickly and safely you have surely only to look at Germany.

Although I have no personal experience over there, I am told, for instance, that if it starts to rain they automatically slow down. They seem able to drive according to the conditions so why can't others follow there good example?

Is it better training or just something in the German culture or psyche?


Training in Germany is, IMHO, of a higher standard and there are regular road safety infomercials on the telly. Culture? Perhaps; the Germans seem to be better mannered on the roads than we do, but in other aspects of their society they have never heard of the concept of arriving first gets you served first, i.e. the queue :lol:

British drivers do also slow down in the rain but, IME, a significant number seem quite happy to bowl along, potentially into oblivion, when driving rain and spray reduce the visibilty significantly.

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