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PostPosted: Mon Apr 28, 2008 21:19 
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Having visited Germany some time ago, I remember getting an impression of their drivers that personally embarrassed me as an American, even though, as a driver, I have little in common with an average American one:

1) They pay dearly for the entitlement (neither a right, nor a privilege) to drive
2) The required training takes long enough, that finding, measuring, and adjusting for risks develops naturally as a skill, and has enough time to be molded or adjusted as the need arises (I can't speak as to the verbal or written components, as I cannot yet read or understand Deutsch)
3) The average German has a pride regarding their driving abilities, and can derive genuine joy from the most routine drive. Any American displaying any pride in regards to above average driving abilities would either be shunned as a hyperbolic liar, or ostracized as an immature hoon - unless he is a cabdriver, in which case they grudgingly acknowledge that level of ability is an adaptation that they are happy to avoid
4)
a)
Chancellor Angela Merkel wrote:
It won't happen with me
... on her rejection of her party's proposal that would create a 130KpH - 81MpH - speed limit on currently unlimited sections of Germany's autobahns.
b)
Guenther Klusmeyer, BMW Development Engineer wrote:
Germany is a key market as far as global automotive development is concerned. Our cars drive the way they do because we can go as fast as we like. Impose a limit, and the situation would change. I see this as a threat to the competitive advantage of the German motor industry.

That last point may seem unrelated; it is not. Their culture, their industry, and their government, appreciates both Car & Driver with :wink: a reverence and respect that, at best, only seems to infect youth in other countries. Tempered by adult maturity, education, and experience, it might be said that they need to handicap themselves by removing the speed limit on certain portions of the Autobahnen in order to have comparable KSI stats to the rest of Europe, and superior KSI stats to those of America, where the other states make fun of and shake their finger at Texas for being the only state with a speed limit of 80MpH.

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 00:09 
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Mole wrote:
mpaton2004 wrote:
Flynn wrote:
It just seems such a shame, even my dad's 1993 Corolla can cruise at 100 comfortably


I bet it can, I bet most cars will.

I'll also bet that most drivers can't.


Really? That's quite a generalisation there! I would have thought there would be times and conditions where "most" drivers in most cars WOULD be able to cruise safely at "the ton".


Where do you draw the line? Johnny in the Nova with 4 pissed-up mates in the back? Salesman Dave in his Lexus?


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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 00:26 
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You draw the line in a different place every time, depending on the circumstances at the time - bit like driving really!

Perhaps in your world, Johnny and his pissed-up mates in the Nova are OK if they stick to the speed limit and Salesman Dave is an evil child-murderer-in-waiting at 1MPH above it? :roll:


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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 15:45 
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Isn't it funny how 100mph, the ton, sounds like the grim reaper is about to make a call when in reality 30mph along a crowded road is far more dangerous. Just goes to show how brainwashed people are when it comes to speed; how people view fast verses slow...


100MPH!= Image Image Image Image
(On an open deserted straight motorway, clear day, good visibility, experienced alert driver, like they do in Germany every day)




30mph = Image Image Image
(With little children around, parked cars, raining, had a pint to drink, inexperienced 18 year old driver...)


All some people need to know, or want to hear, to determine what is safe, is what speed you were going at? <30mph = good :) 100mph = baaad :(

Kinda sad really.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 16:32 
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Nicely done Tone. :D It's appropriate to use ludicrous pictures to sum up a ludicrous point of view.

Big Tone wrote:
30mph = Image Image Image
(With little children around, parked cars, raining, had a pint to drink, inexperienced 18 year old driver...)

Absolutely. Until the speed limit is dropped to 20mph, then suddenly, without the actual road or anything else except the sign changing at all, 30mph becomes the Speed of Satan. Yep, if you want to know whether it's safe to go at a certain speed, then you can't possibly be sure until you've looked at what the sign says (because exceeding the speed limit is "always dangerous" apparently). The All-Knowing Sign is better at assessing the conditions than some stupid human ever could be.

Of course, mpaton2004 doesn't care what the speed limit is anymore, because (s)he's now going to drive at 10mph everywhere, since (s)he says that's always safer than going faster, and (s)he wouldn't want to mow down the children and kittens. (Unfortunately though, that still won't stop it automatically being his/her fault if a child or kitten runs out right in front of him/her.)

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"The freedom provided by the motor vehicle is not universally applauded, however: there are those who resent the loss of state control over individual choice that the car represents. Such people rarely admit their prejudices openly; instead, they make false or exaggerated claims about the adverse effects of road transport in order to justify calls for higher taxation or restrictions on mobility." (Conservative Way Forward: Stop The War Against Drivers)


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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 18:41 
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bombus wrote:
Of course, mpaton2004 doesn't care what the speed limit is anymore, because (s)he's now going to drive at 10mph everywhere, since (s)he says that's always safer than going faster, and (s)he wouldn't want to mow down the children and kittens. (Unfortunately though, that still won't stop it automatically being his/her fault if a child or kitten runs out right in front of him/her.)


No no.. not even 10mph Bombus! ;)

Someone absolutely cracked me up the other day with a remark about checking for babies under your wheels before you even pull away because any 'speed kills' :rotfl:

I must find that thread again and thanks to whoever posted that one :lol:

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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PostPosted: Sat May 17, 2008 19:36 
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Were I to play my own Devil's Advocate, I'd be 1st to say that driving above 65MpH /105 KpH wastes fuel (an aerodynamic fact), and that that alone is a good enough reason not to go faster. Note that this has nothing to do with safety whatsoever. It's economical, environmental, and probably political, but speed alone is not enough

I'll also submit that as populations become more dense, average speeds will decrease because people need a certain amount of space to 'feel' comfortable enough to travel at a certain speed, and as space increases or decreases, speed follows.
Even if Germans started exclusively breeding with Hendon Class One Drivers to create a race of uber-Hendon-fahrers, they'd still feel more comfortable with more speed if they had more space.

Also, keep in mind that in a given populace, increasing the number of drivers reduces the number of pedestrians, and vice versa, and thus, the number of pedestrians struck by driven vehicles would remain surprisingly constant, unless the balance were tipped quite far to either end.

The variable?

Having been to Germany myself, I must say that German pedestrains appear more considerate of other road users. They try to be as predictable as reasonably possible. Put another way, all road users go out of their way to reduce surprises for each other.

Actually, most German road users do their best to keep speed, surprise, & space in balance - sound familiar? - , not only for themselves, but for everyone (sounds like an enlightenment of sorts).

In stark contrast, a steadily increasing majority of the populations of several countries seem to imply that the only people who should be managing speed, surprise, and space are drivers. Then, to go from dumb to dumber, they act as if collisions are inevitable, and thus conclude that the only thing to be managed by drivers is speed [again, only by drivers], since they prefer not to manage surprises by walking in front of vehicles without priority, and wish to romanticize the idea of their children playing in neighborhood streets.

(That morbid advert in which the girl proclaims "Hit me at 30, and there's around an 80% chance I'll live" - is she assuming she's an adult? - looks like a collaboration between Mark Romanek and Floria Sigismondi. I wonder if it ever occured to anyone involved that an ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure.)

I would submit that such people people, by definition, are unreasonable, and thus, should have their licenses revoked. Further, they should be deported to Germany, and sentenced to train for German driver's licenses - at their own expense; may they not leave until they become licensed.

[southern drawl]That'll learn 'em.[/drawl]

_________________
The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Mon May 19, 2008 08:21 
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That post must have taken ages, Big Tone!

:P


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 Post subject: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 19:17 
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Flynn wrote:
I have been going over and over the idea of a motorway without a speed limit for a good few weeks now. The emphasis should be moved to a "speed appropiate for the conditions" approach whereby if for a very exagerated example a guy is going 60 in snow and heavy traffic then they would be hit with a dangerous driving conviction,


Even that isn't always dangerous. What if it's a DC, but only one lane has been cleared the other still has a few inches of snow, so some guy in a Landie with offroad tyres fitted chooses to do 60 in the completely unused outside lane?


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 Post subject: Re: Re:
PostPosted: Fri Jun 13, 2008 20:18 
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Lum wrote:
Flynn wrote:
I have been going over and over the idea of a motorway without a speed limit for a good few weeks now. The emphasis should be moved to a "speed appropiate for the conditions" approach whereby if for a very exagerated example a guy is going 60 in snow and heavy traffic then they would be hit with a dangerous driving conviction,


Even that isn't always dangerous. What if it's a DC, but only one lane has been cleared the other still has a few inches of snow, so some guy in a Landie with offroad tyres fitted chooses to do 60 in the completely unused outside lane?


Then he'll be done for an unroadworthy vehicle due to the tyres :P

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 Post subject: Re: Removing NSL
PostPosted: Thu Aug 14, 2008 21:01 
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I could support a speed increase on MW if everyone had to take MW driving tests before being allowed on them. I can just imagine on our often congested MWs someone doing 120 as Mrs mop pulls out to pass a truck going up hill and is only doing 50 herself, her action forcing joe bloggs doing 80 to swerve into lane 3 to be caught suddenly by Mr 120mph. Then you have trucks doing the same and people queueing to get into lane 3 to pass the trucks. :lol: Britain is not Germany, where they grew up with high speeds on Autobahns and for my money slightly better trained also with less congestion more often than not,no, this is Britain where I dont have much faith in the majority of road users and I believe higher speeds would be too much for the majority to handle. The number of people who drive beyond MW limits inapropriately, often ending up skidding and horn blasting or even rear ending someone is bad enough already, give those drivers a 120 limit and you will have carnage for a long time to come until eventually people might get used to it with trial and error and undertakers make a packet :D .


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