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PostPosted: Mon May 18, 2009 20:26 
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Hello all. My first time here, although I currently have a detailed thread running in another SS Forum.

I would appreciate views about this subject which, IMHO, can become very controversial if you're seen as being partisan to anyone of the
groups concerned(Drivers, Highway Engineers, Meteorologists, etc).

I'm trying not to go there and refuse to Troll. Instead, putting my effort into sharing a knowledge of, and challenging, the 'accepted' limitations
of Winter Road Maintenance. So to come forward with basic ideas which might help to uprate safety and reduce cost.

Here goes, then.

My researches have found that a major, 'accepted' limitation = salting of roads is not undertaken in the early hours, as this is when traffic is at it's lightest
and the Sodium Chloride needs to be crushed to maximise it's anti-icing and deicing affect.

Is this true, please?


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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 01:03 
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Empirical models for particulate matter emissions from paved road surfaces have been criticized for their lack of realism and accuracy. To support the development of a less empirical model, a study was conducted in a busy street at the DAPPLE site in Central London to understand the processes and to identify important parameters that influence emission from paved roads. Ordinary road gritting salt was applied to the road and the particulate matter entering the air at near-road surface level was monitored using optical particle counters. The grit acted as a tracer. The grit moved rapidly along the road in the direction of traffic flow. Build-up of material at the kerb indicated material being thrown across the road by the traffic. Coarser particles were resuspended faster than the finer ones. A clear decay profile was seen in the case of particles >2 micro m; particles <2 micro m did not show any decay pattern during the expt. duration. Grinding of material appears to control the reservoir of fine particles on the road surface. The amt. of material resuspended by traffic is .apprx.30% less than those removed along the road and a factor of 6 higher than the amt. removed across the road. Resuspension accounts for 40% of the total material removed from a road segment and 70% of the material removed together along and across the road. On av. a single vehicle pass removes 0.08% of material present on a road segment at that instant. The calcn. scheme is obtained from a short-duration study and therefore further studies of long duration involving varying road geometry and different traffic and meteorol. condition need to be carried out before applying parameter ests. presented.


From here: http://acrg.chm.bris.ac.uk/acrg/people/martin.shtml First publication link (2008).

You should read this document as a basis for any type of campaign, and seek to contact the authors.
http://www.ukroadsliaisongroup.org/pdfs/p03_well_maintained_highways.pdf See section 13:4.

I will try and dig out more from my PC when I have more time.

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PostPosted: Tue May 19, 2009 16:29 
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A clear decay profile was seen in the case of particles >2 micro m; particles <2 micro m did not show any decay pattern during the expt. duration. Grinding of material appears to control the reservoir of fine particles on the road surface.

Thank you Ernest. Hope I'm not guilty of 'cherrypicking' this section from what you posted, please? I think that the study is saying that vehicle crushing of salt aids the retention of the salt on the road surface. If that's so, then it seems true that it's best to salt a road prior to busy traffic, and vice-versa


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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 15:08 
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samandben wrote:
A clear decay profile was seen in the case of particles >2 micro m; particles <2 micro m did not show any decay pattern during the expt. duration. Grinding of material appears to control the reservoir of fine particles on the road surface.

Thank you Ernest. Hope I'm not guilty of 'cherrypicking' this section from what you posted, please? I think that the study is saying that vehicle crushing of salt aids the retention of the salt on the road surface. If that's so, then it seems true that it's best to salt a road prior to busy traffic, and vice-versa

Cherry pick away - I did! There are more research articles from the US and Canada, but I find that the findings are not so clear cut, as their climate is so different to ours, and they have different agendas.

The article also admits that it is a small sample, and that further research is necessary.
Not like the surveys which are used to justify speed cameras then! :(

I find it a tragedy that so much effort is put into speed enforcement, while other critical areas are neglected, despite them having a far greater influence on safety.

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PostPosted: Wed May 20, 2009 18:41 
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Ernest Marsh wrote
I find it a tragedy that so much effort is put into speed enforcement, while other critical areas are neglected, despite them having a far greater influence on safety.

Please again excuse me trumpeting :roll: about my research, but I've discovered research work relevant to winter (e.g., The effect of 'shading' on road temperatures and conditions; Incar detectors of road conditions; Relationships between road slipperiness, traffic accident risk and winter-maintenance; Probablistic weather forecasting for winter-maintenance) is being/ has been undertaken. Transport Research Lab is also conducting dozens of research projects, many to do with economy of salting.

I digress.

I hoped that this thread might tempt some brainstorming. So, here goes with a couple of basic ideas;

1) Tow wheeled-booms behind salting vehicles. Probably a quick 'win-win' in economic terms, reducing driver-complaints and uprated safety. The booms should be designed to crush the salt into the voids in the road-pavement at and around the tyreline of following vehicles. This increases the energy available to melt ice and to mixing the essential soduium chloride solutions which result.
2) Low cost detectors, made available to the driving public. Exploiting the properties of ice ........ different optical-properties, road temperature v air temperature differences, differences in relative humidity, skid-resistance reductions( tyre friction changes).
3) Free-of-charge telephone calls (and other incentives) available for drivers to report skids, slips, near misses. Increase the stats to expose the true probability of accidents and worst locations.
4) REGULARLY PUBLISH a) more accurate stats about accidents-by-County, combining the data collected by ALL involved services........Police+Ambulance+Hospital+Air Ambulance.
with b)showing accidents per month combined with weather details

Looking for critique and more brainstorming, please.

Thank you :)


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 19:40 
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Sam and Ben //:clap: I have to say you have some sound ideas there. :bow:

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Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 21:34 
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Oh Dear, dear old me :fastasleep: . Still haven't fathomed the software.........muchos apologies. I'll try to try harder


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 21:41 
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In Gear wrote:
Sam and Ben //:clap: I have to say you have some sound ideas there. :bow:



Cheers buddy, for the support :bighand: . How many would you be prepared to represent? After all, ideas are fine but can I respond to some definite interest?..........hmmmmm

'Spose it's early days yet, and this thread's had nearly 70 viewings. But (sic) kinda hoped that more people woulda piped up.

Anyone any fresh ideas :banghead:


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PostPosted: Thu May 21, 2009 21:48 
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samandben wrote:
In Gear wrote:
Sam and Ben //:clap: I have to say you have some sound ideas there. :bow:



Cheers buddy, for the support :bighand: . How many would you be prepared to represent? After all, ideas are fine but can I respond to some definite interest?..........hmmmmm

'Spose it's early days yet, and this thread's had nearly 70 viewings. But (sic) kinda hoped that more people woulda piped up.

Anyone any fresh ideas :banghead:



Hey sam and ben - you are doing fine at learning the software. :clap:


I agree equally with each point you made above by the way. All valid and all would enhance the much needed training and constant education vai muix of internet Highway Code etc/hazard perception/WHAT IF/ German/Swiss AHA-Faktor (as the Swiss call'' em) tests .. and an education which requires us all to evaluate as constant if we are to develop skills more so.

We have to have a fair mix to educate :popcorn:

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Fri May 22, 2009 21:07 
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Mmmmmmm, a 100 viewers of this posting and still only 8 replies.

Is the great British spirit of adversity dead ......... aaaah, yes, perhaps readers haven't experienced winter adversity on the roads.

Didn't we lead the world with our inventiveness?

Not going to be discouraged though, so I've got brossen099's permission to post his earlier idea onto my thread..................


brossen099 wrote
'When there is chance that there is frost about turn off your radio, wind down your window a bit and listen to your tyres swishing on an apparently wet road.
If your tyres go quiet there is a good chance you are on ice'.....


I add audiometric-measurement to my detector idea.

Come on viewerrs, PLEASE contribute.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 00:24 
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Brossen's like me , he's an "old time" driver who learnt the hard way. We didn't have abs, esp etc, etc when we learnt to drive on ice and snow and in those days EVERY winter was a bad one. You HAD to learn to drive on ice or snow or you DIDNT drive to work. We didn't have low temperature detectors or up to date satellite forcasts.We found out the "hard way" if conditions were going to be bad.Like any sort of driving , it's down to experience and if you don't experience bad conditions , you will never learn to drive on them.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 00:50 
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I remember the early eighties (1983, I think) when we had one of the coldest winters on record, -25c at RAF shawbury (not far from me) I was working as a field service engineer at the time travelling about 140 miles a day in rural worcestershire. (not many miles, I will admit, I have had jobs travelling double that since). I never had a day off through bad weather . It started snowing before Xmas and didn't thaw for weeks.(I remember spilling a bottle of milk in the car and after scrubbing it, the carpet froze and never thawed for weeks , it didn't half pong afterwards), I had a moustache at the time and it froze just walking down the road, the river had large chunks of ice floating down it. One day it was so cold the car wouldn't start but the company sent a tow truck to tow me in (about 20 miles away). I drove a 950 or 1100 fiesta at the time ( had both over the years I was with the company) excellent cars in the snow, skinnny tyres and FWD.Not really relevant, probably, to this thread but it shows that when you have to make an effort to travel in bad conditions you just do it, so when you get these "bad" weather conditions that we get now of an inch of snow and they advise that everyone stays at home, I really do have to laugh.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 19:54 
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graball wrote:
I remember the early eighties (1983, I think) when we had one of the coldest winters on record, -25c at RAF shawbury (not far from me) I was working as a field service engineer at the time travelling about 140 miles a day in rural worcestershire. (not many miles, I will admit, I have had jobs travelling double that since). I never had a day off through bad weather .



I recall 1981 being very cold and recall seeing frozen fountains in London. I also seem to recall 1983/1986 and 1987 being likewise. :popcorn: in terms of "bitterly cold". I recall 1995/96 as similarly cold after a decade of "mild"



Quote:
It started snowing before Xmas and didn't thaw for weeks.(I remember spilling a bottle of milk in the car and after scrubbing it, the carpet froze and never thawed for weeks , it didn't half pong afterwards), I had a moustache at the time and it froze just walking down the road, the river had large chunks of ice floating down it. One day it was so cold the car wouldn't start but the company sent a tow truck to tow me in (about 20 miles away). I drove a 950 or 1100 fiesta at the time ( had both over the years I was with the company) excellent cars in the snow, skinnny tyres and FWD.Not really relevant, probably, to this thread but it shows that when you have to make an effort to travel in bad conditions you just do it, so when you get these "bad" weather conditions that we get now of an inch of snow and they advise that everyone stays at home, I really do have to laugh.


I recall the 1981 and 1983 freezes in particular. I remember everything froze and it was chaos in London and the Home Counties at the time.



I also recall deep snow in Yorkshire when I was at secondary school and expected to attend school regardless. I have vague memories of my mother making me wear 3 overcoats when taking me to primary reception in 1963. My mother recalls getting "cut off" and food being "dropped to us" at one point in january 1963. She's been a hoarder of candles/paraffin lamps/calor gas heaters/tinned foods ever since :popcorn:

I recall my father going to work .. battling his way on foot and not making it back for weeks at the time :roll: I think my generation and the one above me in parents were perhaps hardier/more stoic and had the survival gene more than today's softer toilet tissue version of humanity. :popcorn:

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 20:13 
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graball wrote:
Brossen's like me , he's an "old time" driver who learnt the hard way. We didn't have abs, esp etc, etc when we learnt to drive on ice and snow and in those days EVERY winter was a bad one. You HAD to learn to drive on ice or snow or you DIDNT drive to work. We didn't have low temperature detectors or up to date satellite forcasts.We found out the "hard way" if conditions were going to be bad.Like any sort of driving , it's down to experience and if you don't experience bad conditions , you will never learn to drive on them.


You really learn if lucky enough to use an old Anglia on a skid pan :lol: The Anglia/Corsair/Morris 1000/old Oxford (giant moggie style of the 50s) Zephrys/Zodiac/Consuls/earlu Capris were the stalwarts of plod panda- stealth mobiles of yesteryear 50/60s :bow:


I think that our early experiences as chidren/teenagers/young adults in an era of a toughly austere but equally rewarding way of life made our generation into the hard hitting questionners of politically correct nonsense which undermines strength of character and personal acceptance of responsibility for one's own actions :popcorn:

My views are personal and not necessarily shared by politically correct officers who swallow dogma wholesale. Such officers are rare by the way. This type die in headline fires of machine gunned waily types. As Buchner opined in his play about Danton v Robespierre.. "

Quote:
children of the revolution get eaten by the revoltion in due course"



He made a valid point perhaps? I enjoy outings to local theatre by the way. :lol: Our local Little Theatre performed "Danton's Death" recently :bow:

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Sat May 23, 2009 21:19 
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You Guys really have had the value of many experiences, and IMO lucky to have had them so frequently and routinely, because you're probably lightyears ahead of younger folk who, ergo, cannot guage to the same level of self-responsibility. Incidentally, I'm from the same generation as you two, a miner's son and a Yorkshireman to boot, so am well familiar with what you describe.

So, if I point out the clear differences in weight, power and handling between the types of car you describe, and those currently driven, then I'm sure you'll excuse my cynism about the value of any comparisons between driving then and now. Then there's the questions of which generations are the greater risk-takers and relative volumes of traffic.

Political correctness has gone too far, and it's about time that it was given a rational kick-in-the-pants. Which is really why I came to this Forum.

May I ask for some ideas to push the brainstorming along, please?


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 09:11 
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One thing they should be doing is resurfarcing all the roads and repairing the pot holes as these just get larger as the ice expands and causes the tarmac to crumble under pressure. :popcorn:

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 09:40 
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Quote:
You really learn if lucky enough to use an old Anglia on a skid pan :lol: The Anglia/Corsair/Morris 1000/old Oxford (giant moggie style of the 50s) Zephrys/Zodiac/Consuls/earlu Capris were the stalwarts of plod panda- stealth mobiles of yesteryear 50/60s :bow:


Yes there were still a few Anglias, Corsairs, Moggies,, Zephyrs about when I started driving (early 70's) I had a Mark1 Escort GT but (rally style) went for wider wheels and tyres... 175's (yes those were wide tyres in the seventies and a 70 profile was LOOOW). I was amazed at how crap the traction was in the snow (even with my "chunky" tyres), I was having trouble getting up hills in snow and the Moggies were flying up them, then some "old timer" told me that skinny tyres were much better in snow because they cut through it instead of sitting on top.

As for Samandben's observation that cars have a different power/weight ratio now, although it's true ,it only means that you have to "get to know" your car before setting out in bad conditions, once you know how the car handles/behaves when pushed in the wet, you will be half way to knowing what to expect when you drive on snow/ice.

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 23:07 
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In Gear wrote:
One thing they should be doing is resurfarcing all the roads and repairing the pot holes as these just get larger as the ice expands and causes the tarmac to crumble under pressure. :popcorn:


:clap: Fantastic.......indirectly you've just given me a vital piece of info. Where ice has remained in the road, salting has failed to control it! So, I wonder if potholes & similarly worn sections indicate loactions where more ice-control attention is needed?


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PostPosted: Sun May 24, 2009 23:11 
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graball wrote:
before setting out in bad conditions.


Cheers. :)
This may come across as a plain stupid question, but it's meant as a sincere factfinder...... what do you mean by bad conditions, please?


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PostPosted: Mon May 25, 2009 19:03 
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How "bad" the conditions are is not relevent.

What I am trying to get over to you is that if you know the limitations of your car, in say the wet, you will then know what "mishaps" to expect only to a greater degree if "over pushed" on ice and snow. For instance a rear wheel drive car will be "tail happy" under excessive acceleration and cornering on slippy surfaces, a front wheel drive car will understeer in the same conditions.

If you were to do skip pan/ deserted car park experimentation with a rear wheel car, that you own, in very wet or snowy conditions (the worse the better) you will get some idea of how quickly the back will skid out under acceleration when cornering and with a front wheel drive car the same would happen with the front wheels , you will also find out how severely you can brake without the tyres losing grip in a straight line and also how much stopping power your brakes give you in the dry .

The first thing I do when taking possession of any car is take it to a deserted industrial estate or airfield and "push it" to find out its braking , traction, handling capabilities.

Every car's different and corners that can safely be taken at 40-50MPh in one car would be suicidal in another.

Unfortunately, I believe, this is why so many drivers find themselves either caught out in slippy conditions or at the other extreme, are found to be crawling along far slower than the car's handling is capable of.

An example that I saw today was someone in a newish car doing 23MPH round a fairly tight corner (in the dry and with clear forward visibility for seveeral hundred yards), that I could have taken cormfortably in my car at 40-45 MPH and his car should have been capable of entering the same corner at at least 35MPH in those conditions but he was holding up a line of traffic on a twisty country road because he hadn't mastered it's cornering capabilities.

He wasn't an "old dodderer" either because he was more than capable of "flooring the throttle" on the straights but showed himself up on corners.

So to get back to my original quote of...........

"you have to "get to know" your car before setting out in bad conditions, once you know how the car handles/behaves when pushed in the wet, you will be half way to knowing what to expect when you drive on snow/ice."..........

Maybe I should have stated that you have to "get to know your car" before setting out in ANY conditions"....;-)

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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