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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 04:29 
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For the really bad drivers .... the one's that get booked for dangerous driving much more than once - that seem to have the book thrown at them and still carry on ignoring the rules and endangering others too ...

A little idea occurred to me - is there any mileage in having them wear a 'leg tag' ? This is one that could be tracked by satellite so that location / etc can be monitored? To actually use technology for good ??

Much data could be gathered. I wonder if having them biologically monitored too would help - much has been written about 'showing off' as the motivational reason to dangerous high spirited driving ... ? So a doctor to could monitor the personal stats of his / her and see if they are becoming excessive. The official monitoring body send a warning 'beep' escalating if ignored ....
This would be instead of jail and under strict agreement ... and prob prove good enforced 'teaching' ...

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 07:01 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
For the really bad drivers .... the one's that get booked for dangerous driving much more than once - that seem to have the book thrown at them and still carry on ignoring the rules and endangering others too ...
A little idea occurred to me - is there any mileage in having them wear a 'leg tag' ? This is one that could be tracked by satellite so that location / etc can be monitored? To actually use technology for good ??


And new cars would be fitted , in the driver's footwell, with a sensor which detects the tag and prevents the car from starting :evil:

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PostPosted: Wed Jul 15, 2009 16:09 
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I'm sure such a device would work perfectly... Until you put it in a metal box...

I would be against any kind of tracking - if 'they' allow themselves to track anyone then it'll only be a matter of time until they start tracking you and me.

Do we know why these people do what they do? Root cause and all that.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 02:56 
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Well I can understand the concern that this might 'easy' in this current climate be abused, but I was trying to brainstorm an idea only ... look at the manner in which to deal with persistent offenders ....

The Alex 'Jerrium' (have to find his card, check spelling, and update to his website etc), scheme in Australia showed that many young people that speed do so to show off - the fundamental reason ...
Whether it leads back to the, 'attract a mate' instinct, I am not totally sure, but it may fit the 'show I am fit and strong' mentality.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 17, 2009 03:00 
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If by "speed" (to show off) you mean exceeding the random numbers, an obvious answer to that is the get rid of the random numbers...

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 19, 2009 22:24 
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These are the people that are driving pretty much throw away cars arn't they? So crushing their cars won't do anything. Prison doesn't work that well from what I can see or we would have fewer repeat offenders. What we need is a way that get's the penny to drop to make them see why society thinks that they are a menace and to then stop them being one.

Can they be educated out of it? Is there anyway where they could be taken to see the aftermath of what they can or have caused? I would like to see a system where by the uninsured have to repay their victims or the damage they have caused. No job? No worries, here is a brush and sweep the hard shoulder of M25 for £4.50/hr. The car was £9k, get sweeping.


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 00:10 
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They don't realise they're bad though. Does anyone actually intend to be a bad driver?? I'd imagine it would take some sort of CBT to make them more aware of their actions and consequences. Paying off the debt is a good idea and would stop them just doing the 50p a week scam. Take up their time for several years so that they 'feel' the cost rather than just see at as a number.

What happens if they injure someone? How would victims feel about being involved with bad drivers as a punishment for the driver. Eg if someone put someone in a wheel chair you'd make them go and see that someone and be involved with their life and see the pain and suffering they have caused. But this is also assuming they are the kind of people that give a rat's.

Physically preventing them from driving seems a much better way. I think some kind of knee brace that only allows slow movement so that they couldn't physically drive a car would help. You could do the same with elbows. There's also hypnotism as a possibility. Make them scared of driving so they won't even get in a car....


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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 15:01 
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This may give you an idea of the mindset of some of these people...

I was at my sister's house and a workmate called in, we were chatting about pets and this person came out with a tale that left me feeling rather sickened. Back when she was a teenager her brother and a mate 'were doing a bit of feeving' and decided to take a small dog with them when they left the victim's home. When they found no one would buy it they were going to just dump it somewhere, she persuaded them to let her hand it in as a lost dog after taking its collar off.

I held my tongue because she was a friend of my sister's and from what I understood had left that life behind, the way she came out with the story though it was pretty clear that she did not see what had happened as being wrong in any great way. Perhaps the most telling thing was that while showing some compassion for the dog there was no feeling of regret for what losing the dog would have meant for the family it was taken from.

How we can deal with this as a society I have no idea, how brutal would the punishment and how successful at catching these drivers would we have to be to make them think twice? Didn't people get hanged for stealing food at one time? Would you want such laws and punishments that in the wrong circumstances may get applied to you? At the risk of sounding a bit Dixie (sorry chap :) ) would you trust any government not to classify you or your actions as 'them' rather than 'us'? Is Mr Saxby them or us?

Apologies for the negative post, I was just wondering if rogue drivers to a certain extent are something we will have to live with in order to have any freedom to use the roads at all.

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PostPosted: Mon Jul 20, 2009 21:31 
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There does seem a frightening lack of empathy from others these days.

I think it stems from their own lack of care and responsibility that has ever been asked of them, therefor they cannot appreciate or have any chance of understanding anyone elses feelings, as they have never been taught to be responsible or appreciate anything.

I recall one group of persistent offenders (car thefts) were given 'time' in a garage to build their own car. At the end they raced them and had a wonderful time, totally loving the cars they made. It was then they were asked how they would feel if someone stole that car. (Cheapy cars not for the road you understand).
All of them would hate the car to go and began to realise that when they had stolen someone else's this was a nasty thing to have done.

Can several programs of this nature or serious psychologist guided questionnaires be the 'answer' (or similar). Do these people have such a low esteem and always treated with distaste that they never expect to become worth 'anything' ? so they sit in the same position never expecting to improve or change their 'nature' because they never think that they are worth more. Can giving and showing them respect and value, help them understand that they can become respectable citizens, and also that others belongings are not for them to achieve peer praise !
Can value, respectability, responsibility and self worth be he key ingredients to the answers of a morally corrected person ?

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PostPosted: Sun Jul 26, 2009 03:47 
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SafeSpeedv2 wrote:
I recall one group of persistent offenders (car thefts) were given 'time' in a garage to build their own car. At the end they raced them and had a wonderful time, totally loving the cars they made. It was then they were asked how they would feel if someone stole that car. (Cheapy cars not for the road you understand).
All of them would hate the car to go and began to realise that when they had stolen someone else's this was a nasty thing to have done.

Can several programs of this nature or serious psychologist guided questionnaires be the 'answer' (or similar). Do these people have such a low esteem and always treated with distaste that they never expect to become worth 'anything' ? so they sit in the same position never expecting to improve or change their 'nature' because they never think that they are worth more. Can giving and showing them respect and value, help them understand that they can become respectable citizens, and also that others belongings are not for them to achieve peer praise !
Can value, respectability, responsibility and self worth be the key ingredients to the answers of a morally corrected person ?
Correct is better than corrected. An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, I say.
The way to significantly reduce, if not prevent, theft, is to prevent the mindset which devalues others, and their work. Every piece of property represents someone's Time and Energy - work.
Theft is the somatic equivalent of saying, "What I'm taking from you, is worth much less to me - and perhaps to whom I'll sell it - than it is to you."
The thieves you mentioned didn't receive a sufficient quality of Time and Energy from others to begin with - again, prevention, rather than cure.
I'd rather properly raise a child, than correct an adult. Rare is the child who is treated with respect, and taught that respecting others and respecting oneself are two sides of the same coin, who yet goes on to become a thief.

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The Rules for ALL ROAD USERS:
1) No one gets hurt
2) Nothing gets hit, except to protect others; see Rule#1
3) The Laws of Physics are invincible and immutable - so-called 'laws' of men are not
4) You are always immediately and ultimately responsible for your safety first, then proximately responsible for everyone's
Do not let other road users' mistakes become yours, nor yours become others
5) The rest, including laws of the land, is thoughtful observation, prescience, etiquette, decorum, and cooperation


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 16, 2009 14:53 
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teabelly wrote:
They don't realise they're bad though.


That's the problem.

teabelly wrote:
Physically preventing them from driving seems a much better way. I think some kind of knee brace that only allows slow movement so that they couldn't physically drive a car would help.


There's a piece of headgear in Chester museum called "The Scold's Bridle". A nagging wife has it fastened onto her head with locks. A sort of rough iron "tongue" protrudes into the scold's mouth, shutting her up. There's also a pair of iron boots and a pair of iron gloves. You fit them onto a person, then you heat them up in the fire! Maybe bad drivers should have these treatments?


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PostPosted: Fri Oct 02, 2009 03:16 
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The Rush wrote:
....An ounce of prevention is worth a pound of cure, I say.
The way to significantly reduce, if not prevent, theft, is to prevent the mindset which devalues others, and their work. Every piece of property represents someone's Time and Energy - work.
Theft is the somatic equivalent of saying, "What I'm taking from you, is worth much less to me - and perhaps to whom I'll sell it - than it is to you."
The thieves you mentioned didn't receive a sufficient quality of Time and Energy from others to begin with - again, prevention, rather than cure.
I'd rather properly raise a child, than correct an adult. Rare is the child who is treated with respect, and taught that respecting others and respecting oneself are two sides of the same coin, who yet goes on to become a thief.

You make some excellent points that I totally agree with.
Yes far easier to discipline a child than deal with that child's experiences of learned bad behaviours.

But to discipline children or teenagers early enough you have to tackle the parents. A recent story shows (exceptionally) how a family's children (think it is 5) have all been taken away as they are all 'fat'! The parents are upset to say the least.
So how far do you go to state that 'not enough discipline' or do parenting classes - this is a vast amount of power being throuwn about by the State. Not good. So how to make the parents want to learn and help their children by ensuring goo discipline.
I think it is a whole 'state of mind' social pattern - people are stressed and unhappy feel totally demotivated and so the children are too.

So incentives and motivation have to be the key to establish better mind sets.

I also wonder if some serious encouragement for teenagers to go into the services, many people have been 'made' by taking this 'action', and can learn on the job too.

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PostPosted: Sat Oct 03, 2009 00:33 
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I think guilt has a lot to do with it. It's far more common for both parents to work these days. That, combined with the "long hours culture" means the kids generally have less 1:1 time with their parents. It also means that the parents are more tired and less able to devote the necessary energy to the kids too. As a result, they feel so guilty, that they tend to compensate by spoiling the kids somewhat - more sweets, more toys, less contact. As a "double-whammy", the fact that they spend less time with their offspring means they don't get to see them being naughty as often. That means that on the rare occasions that they DO see them misbehave, the kids (not unreasonably) feel resentful at being disciplined because they "normally" get away with doing "X". Just when the parents are thinking about belting the little brats, they see Supernanny seemingly effortlessly controlling unruly brats with little more than a disapproving look and a trip to the "naughty step" and the guilt gets worse still, so the cycle continues!

A further problem (in my view) is this spiraling cycle of one-upmanship that one so often sees whereby mum is rushing round like a mad thing trying to get little Tamara to her riding lesson and back in time to take little Tarquin to his Cubs meeting and the other one to gymnastics and another one to ballet... Only to meet Mrs. One-upmanship there who proudly tells her all about little Johnny's flying lessons! I'm not saying it's BAD for kids to have a hobby - far from it, but it all eats into the limited time that a family has to spend together. I'm a firm believer in the idea of sitting down round a dining table ever evening and at least sharing a meal, if nothing else. And before anyone thinks I'm off on a self righteous ego-trip, I'm not. Some of the above is written from experience!

It's difficult to know how to fix it too. My gut feeling is that a parent that knows they've spent a goodly amount of 1:1 "quality time" with their sprog and they've both had some fun together will feel MUCH less bad about disciplining said sprog when it steps out of line than one who is already feeling guilt-wracked about "neglecting" it!


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PostPosted: Mon Nov 23, 2009 00:03 
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Mole wrote:



It's difficult to know how to fix it too. My gut feeling is that a parent that knows they've spent a goodly amount of 1:1 "quality time" with their sprog and they've both had some fun together will feel MUCH less bad about disciplining said sprog when it steps out of line than one who is already feeling guilt-wracked about "neglecting" it!


Sorry -mate - I've got four kids , plus a few grand kids - first lesson they learned was respect for people and their property .It's been passed on to the grand kids - we spoil our grand kids( with the parents approval only) -but when grandpa gets upset - they know -my eldest grand daughter knows Grandpa is a soft touch for anything -but she has learnt that is has to be done politely - else her mum will bawl her out ( and if daughters partner ,not her dad ,but the one she has come to respect as dad gets angry because she's upset mum - she don't like it .)
We operate old fashioned values and virtues - no smacks etc - treat the kids as older than they are and they respect it .Kids like to think that they can pull the wool over your eyes - last night my GD wanted to stay at her mates -mum said no - then she wanted to stay overnight with us -till I said that she'd not get out after dark ,and if not with the pal she said she'd be with or missing -well for rest of year -well -don't ask .Mrs chipped in to say -she'd not get out and suddenly GD wanted to go home .
This is a teenage "young lady" -who also is into motorbikes ,football and boxing .She spends lots of quality time with her adopted dad - who's bike daft ( either powered or not ) ,as she is.But when discipline come around - she knows the limits mum has taught them .
My youngest son's kids likewise know where the line lies - step over it and dad changes from friend to chastiser .
I always worried about my kids - till I saw how they brought up their own - then I SAT BACK AND RELAXED - my Grandkids come round to see us - and overall they are wonderful - but then -
WE CAN GIVE THEM BACK ( and then piece returns :D :D :D ).
And we lokk forward to the next visit

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