Safe Speed Forums

I recently had an expenses claim rejected, I was using a company pool vehicle at the time and the contentious item in question was a £3.99 screenwash which I bought because the washer bottle was full of tap water which was insufficient to remove the dead insects and bird crap. I now understand why it was filled with tap water. Cheapskate company doesn't want to pay and neither do cheapskate drivers.

This got me thinking about other ways that company policies make their drivers do unsafe things. I know little about the HGV industry other than it is already quite heavily regulated with varying degrees of success, so I am talking about van drivers, engineers and sales reps here.

1) Force companies to pay overtime for travelling. I rarely finish on time. If I am lucky I will actually finish my days work and get to leave my customer's site before my official finishing time of 5PM and then have to drive back on my own time, consequentially there is a temptation to take risks, wheras I'd be much more relaxed and calm if I knew I was getting paid to sit in the M6 roadworks. This would also benefit companies in that I'd be less likely to do a half arsed job in order to try and get home in time.

2) Force them to pay for food on a late run in. If someone isn't getting in until 7 or 8 pm, they are going to be starving and tired not exactly the best combination for safe driving, a meal and a coffee at the services should help with this, especially for those who are engineers and don't get much of an opportunity for lunch.

3) Prevent them from skimping on vehicle safety, for example only replacing one tyre after a puncture, in addition to the above comments about the screenwash.

I also wish the working time directive would kick in sooner, though I realise that one is more controversial, especially amongst the HGV drivers.

Something certainly needs to be done to make employers take business driving more seriously - I remember you saying how your wonderful employers expected you to handle support calls over the phone when driving

Whether legislation of this kind is the right way I don't know, as we all know that passing a law against something doesn't necessarily stop it happening.

But certainly some kind of code of practice could be drawn up that good employers could sign up to and set an example to others. Unfortunately, though, if the likes of BRAKE got their hands on it it would end up just parroting: "you must obey the speed limit at all times".

I would say the two key things are

1. business driving is a safety-critical work activity and should generally be undertaken during normal working hours, and
2. handsfree mobile phones should only be used in emergencies when driving

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

we had a policy announced recently.
haven't read it yet

Regarding the small fleet I look after (10 mainly small vans)

1. I would NEVER scrimp on something as trivial as screenwash, in fact I always have a big bottle sitting by the car washing stuff.

2. My guys get paid for any time over their usual hometime, i.e. if they usually get home at 1730, but get home on this occasion at 1830, they get an extra hour's pay at time and a half, because their day was an hour longer.

3. Working overtime beyond about 1930 gets you a meal allowance of £5.00

4. My vehicles are maintained regardless of cost, and the best vehicle for the job (rather than the cheapest) is always selected when new ones are needed.

Come and work for me! Oh, except the pay is sh1t...

Now you see, this is the way it should be, a fair compromise with neither side taking the piss or being encouraged to do so.

I remember arguing for exactly this when I worked for a certain large telecoms company (that has recently gone all but bust) who refused to pay overtime for travelling.

A colleague of mine responded to this by simply not leaving early to get to a different site and if his trip home went past his normal hometime, would stop at the nearest service station hotel and stay the night. He lived in Liverpool and once booked a night at the travelodge at either Knutsford or Sandbach services on the M6 (I forget which) just to make this point, but because it fitted within procedure, the accountants never kicked up a fuss and no-one noticed.

I had a similar run in, literally, because we did get a breakfast allowance if we left before 7AM (I used to leave at 6:59AM) and I ended up using my own car which had just had a rebuilt engine. The accountants checked the time and location on the recipt and claimed that I couldn't have left before 7 to get to Corey services at that time until I gave them the recipt and running in instructions for my engine rebuild. (specifically the part about not exceeding 50mph)

I agree with the comments about yet more legislation being a bad thing, but a code of practice probably isn't going to work with employers like my current one.

Old chesnut, the Police view occupational driving as a HSE issue and the HSE view the issue as being a TrafPol issue but there is guidance from the HSE and RoSPA, if anyone wants copies please yell.

Aloso many companies go with the requirements of the Road Traffic Act but neglect their dutes under the Management Regs and PUWER (Provision and Use of Work Equipment Regulations).

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

I wonder what the possibility of getting companies to pay for advanced driving lessons to it's employees that spend more then say 50% of the working week on the road? Or perhaps using more 'cause and permit' offences when an employee was forced(or would have faced discrimination) to undertake unsafe driving practices?

It's definately a real problem, but some of it may not be helped by employees who don't take breaks and go home late even though the practice maybe positively discouraged by their employers.

What about employers who'se official policy is to take breaks and finish on time, but then complain at workers who don't get the job done in a single day?

It's easy for a company to have something down in writing in a H&S manual then actively ignore it and discriminate against workers who follow it. Look at the number of companies who "discouraged" their workers from opting in to the working time directive.

Oh yes I entirely agree with you that there many many badly run companies that may have an official policy(probably one which the directors have written) and then there is an "unofficial policy" which the shop floor workers have to work to otherwise there is, as you say, discrimination/loss of perks etc.

I know in the real world it's very difficult when a worker has a family and mortgage etc to assert themselves at work at. I don't really have an answer to this other then to work for someone else(not saying that's easy or practical). All I would say is it's your(not specifically reffering to you) licence and your life, and if it's that bad then leaving is the only option - or maybe speaking to the senior management but that certainly won't go down well on the shop floor.

What I was reffering to however are a minority of workerholics who will work long hours to increase their earnings chasing sales or whatever. I bet if you would ask their employers whether they want them to such long hours they will probably say no.

It probably sounds cruel but until it is noted on accident reports if the driver(s) involved where on comapny business it doesn't stand a cat in hell's chance, a few deaths would also help.

Neither the HSE or Police see it as 'their' problem !!

Some companies take a seasoned view some, will not allow you to have a company car until you have taken some sort of fleet/defensive/advanced driver training, the ones I know of source fund this themselves (rather than the employee) and it is conducted in company time.

Speaking of which, muggins here has been asked to give a briefing, does anyone know of anywhere that I can get clip art of along the lines of roadcraft pictures.

I have loads of RTA's but any suggestions or pics would be appreciated.

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

you'll never make cheapskate companys take anything seriously unless you legistate it, and you can't legistate every detail.

I served my time for the contracting division of an electricity board. 1 week after passing my test and having never driven anything other than a mini metro with an instructor sat beside me, one of the engineers asked me to take a lorry to chalford. this meant driving through the city of gloucester, down the motorway and then along many narrow country lanes. I told him I really didn't want to do it, then after driving the 15 year-old wreck round the yard once (this particular vehicle was evan considered dangerous by our ex-army lorry driver) I tried to explain to him I'd kill someone if I took it out on the road.

he took this personally and caused me trouble. within weeks however I was driving anoher heap of a 6 ton XXLWB iveco, really quite scared shitless and not sure of what i was doing. but his attitude was "you can legally drive it so whats the problem".

in my experience most employers attitude to safety stops with meeting minimal legal requirements as advised by the consultants.

_________________
Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

There will always be cowboys, but if you pass legislation that places a general duty on employers to take work-related driving safety as seriously as you would working in a chemical plant, then it will be taken up by the more responsible companies and the effect will gradually filter through.

Just as there will always be racists, but overtly racist behaviour in the workplace is much less common than it used to be.

The fact that you cannot get a perfect or 100% solution does not mean you should not try at all.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

And so you end up with forms-in-triplicate and jobs held up because someone somewhere didn't sign some worthless piece of paper because, ultimately, we as people do not have the respect for each other to appreciate the man needs some poxy screenwash so we have to write a rule to say he can have it instead.

because if you don't, the employers will say, and it will stand in court, "it's his duty to refuse to drive a car he believes to be unsafe and we expect and would encourage him to do so, in fact it's written into his contract of employment". The fact we all know what'd happen to him if he did do that is unprovable.

and then they ask why everything costs so much...

_________________
Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

This gets banded about whenever it turns out that a fatal accident involved a sales rep but with the current labour nannystate - sorry, government i can really see this being introduced at some stage.. Tacographs for sales rep cars, no doubt this will come.

A lot of sales reps use their own cars for work, so would escape this. You'd see a lot more reps doing this too, if only to avoid getting caught doing 90 on the empty motorways.

Unsafe cars is one thing, and personally not one I've ever had an issue with. I was referring more to unreasonable hours, pressure to make specific times or complete so many jobs (at different sites) in a day or requiring you to answer the phone at any time, even when driving.

Lum: "A lot of sales reps use their own cars for work, so would escape this. You'd see a lot more reps doing this too, if only to avoid getting caught doing 90 on the empty motorways. "

Not quite so, under the guidance released by the HSE the employer should be checking to see that all vehicles used for work are roadworthy, will have to wait and see if this is carried over in the road safety bill. One company I worked for insisted on seeing my insurance, MOT and details of servicing on my private car when I was using it for work.

"Unsafe cars is one thing, and personally not one I've ever had an issue with. I was referring more to unreasonable hours, pressure to make specific times or complete so many jobs (at different sites) in a day or requiring you to answer the phone at any time, even when driving."

Again something that at present is in this limbo between the HSE and police. Having said that given that police will start having to check if the driver was 'on business' at the time of an RTA it may start to change.

_________________
Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

I 'opted out' last month and no-one has asked to check my car, but i think you are right, if i had an incident while driving on business i would think my employer could be held liable.

I would think it would be easy to force me to have taco fitted to keep the right to use my own car.

My company are pretty good at ensuring that my maintanence needs are met without any trouble.

My problem is more to do with the number of hours I work and finding the time to actually get the car booked in.

An easier way might be to use the clout insurance companies have. If they whack up premiums for companies which show a poor accident record and work their drivers too hard then they will have to change their culture. Allowing insurance companies to claim the cost of repairs in a fault accident off the company if they were shown to be putting undue pressue on an employee might also prove fruitful.

As an employee you are well protected if you are dismissed for refusing to do something which puts your health and safety at risk. You also have a duty of care not to put other people at risk so argubly you are in breach of guidelines if you knowingly drive tired or take risks to meet deadlines.

No, this will just encourage those companies to write into their contracts that the employee must provide their own car and get paid 40p a mile or whatever.

Or the company will move to cars that are cheaper to ensure, so instead of getting proper reps cars that are designed for the long trips, they will get crappy Fiestas that become uncomfortable after an hours driving and destract the driver from the road.