Safe Speed Forums

SafdeSpeed: "B cyclist wrote:
I drop a block of stone off a scaffold at a building site I am working on. It kills a fellow worker.


Interesting. What should the penalty be for such an act? Could it be a pure accident, with no negligence of any sort? And if it was should there be any penalty at all?

Are they any such cases around for us to examine the outcomes and sentences?"

Paul, the practice is called 'bombing' often used by scaffolders when dismantling scaffolds, have been on site and a 9ft scaff pole buried it's end in the ground in front of me, if HSE see it it's at least a prohibition notice, if it's common practice within the company then the company can be prosecuted.

Due to the small number of inspectors it usually relies on an inspector being about when it happens - PN issued or an accident usually a fatality. The criminal prosecuction is normally under HSAW (Health & Safety at Work etc Act 1974), MHSWR (Management of Health & Safety at Work Regulations 1999) and Construction (Health, Safety and Welfare) Regulations 1996.

As the HSE is interested in raising H&S within the workplace and 'bombing' is a practice that some companies actively encourage due to time, the prosecution is normally aimed primerily at the employer. However, individuals have been prosecuted typical fines £15,000 (keeps it within the magistrates court as below the £20,000 limit - above which it has to go to Crown Court for sentancing).

If memory serves right the only custodial sentances passed under H&S law number 4:

3 for offences commited under the CDM Regs

1 for offences commited under Control of Asbestos at Work Regs (company using 15 year old boys to strip brown asbestos).

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

Thanks, SE.

Paul, with hindsight it probably wasn't the best example.

But I'd hope that you would understand what I was trying to say.

...and PeterE, of course it wasn't deliberate. I believed I was behaving safely at the time. I just hadn't checked my behaviour/that of the unfortunate enough at the time.. much as happens with driving deaths.

(Standard disclaimer, 'No animal has been harmed in the making of this post.' )

I thought it was particularly interesting because it could vary all the way from pure accident to murder. As it can on the road. Do you accept that there are 'pure accidents' on the road?

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

No, there is always a cause.

Now, if you had asked 'are there blameless crashes', (i.e. blame on one or other person involved) I'd have to say yes there are.

However I don't think there are very many...

Agreed all of that.

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Paul Smith
Our scrap speed cameras petition got over 28,000 sigs
The Safe Speed campaign demands a return to intelligent road safety

That would have to lead to what witnesses say, if any?

If there are no witnesses or, these are unreliable,
its a far tougher case.

LeveL: "If there are no witnesses or, these are unreliable,
its a far tougher case."

Yes and no, - if witnesses were reliable and present the prosecution could be against under H&S law (criminal if if there could be proven a criminal intent), it could be against both an individual or company (as detailed above).

If no witnesses then the prosecution could be against the contractor working on thhe scaffold for unsecured loads at height or similar and/or the Principal Contractor to for failing to adequately manage works on site.

It's not a good parrallel between H&S Law and most other criminal law in as much as section 40 of the Health and Safety at Work etc Act 1974 states "...the reversal of the burden of proof as far as practicable."

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Gordon Brown saying I got the country into it's current economic mess so I'll get us out of it is the same as Bomber Harris nipping over to Dresden and offering to repair a few windows.

Chaos, panic and disorder - my work here is done.

http://www.wildcrafts.co.uk

Big companies have their own lobbyists though,
who are the real law changers. Everything to do
with money and nothing to do with common sense.

Interesting - MM+wildcat, possibly even IG , will remember the German idea ( is it true today??) that on the roads ,there are no accidents - someone is to blame .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on