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 Post subject: Driving!!
PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 14:31 
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I found this on the 'General Chat' of www.ickedownload.com.

We all know that drink driving is wrong, but how many people are driving around whacked out of their head on prosac, valium or other anti-depressants and prescription drugs. The government must know about this, but doesn't give a shit because of all the money this generates for drug companies and that fact it likes people to be like zombies rather than start thinking for themselves.

makes an interesting point.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 15:58 
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Hi belladonna.

We do actually pull people over this. Think Wildy is best to chat about this - she works for one such company.

Know both Mad Doc and Wildy :neko: have posted before over prescription drug dangers and need to read labels and follow advice.

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PostPosted: Fri Aug 26, 2005 16:06 
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Am I the only one who finds it crazy that a website run by David Icke is providing better safety advice (albeit with a sutiably conspiratorial air to it :lol:) than many of our government agencies?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 00:05 
Dare I say it, but a lot of what i've seen on that website makes sense, thanks for posting it Belladonna, i'll have a good read later.


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PostPosted: Tue Aug 30, 2005 00:12 
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Prescription drugs are a rather awkward area. If they say unequivocally "You MUST NOT drive if taking these" then a lot of people will simply not take them, especially if they are not sufficiently ill to stay off work.

However if they say "these MAY affect driving" then people will carry on regardless. And drugs don't affect all people in the same way.

So it's very difficult to legislate on this issue.

I'm not really convinced that there is an epidemic of people causing accidents primarily because of taking prescription drugs. I think people are too keen to find excuses for their inattention.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 20:00 
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johno1066 wrote:
Dare I say it, but a lot of what i've seen on that website makes sense, thanks for posting it Belladonna, i'll have a good read later.


Yes you dare!!!
Apart from trying to 'kick start' Roadpeace in this area, I also spend much time sourcing info for many conspiracy sites. Much of what we read and hear is 'fact'. Hope you enjoy the site.

Wisdom is knowing how little we know - Socrates.

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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 20:01 
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spankthecrumpet wrote:
Am I the only one who finds it crazy that a website run by David Icke is providing better safety advice (albeit with a sutiably conspiratorial air to it :lol:) than many of our government agencies?


Since when have our goverment agencies been telling us the truth????? :roll:

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2005 23:47 
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PeterE wrote:

I'm not really convinced that there is an epidemic of people
causing accidents primarily because of taking prescription drugs.



But has there been any real research into this ?

When tranquillisers first came onto the market in the mid-1950's they could be bought
over-the-counter without a doctor's prescription. But within a few years, because of
newspaper reports linking them with Fatal RTAs they were put on prescription.
The dangers involved in their long-term use - addiction and brain-damage -
only came to light in the 1970s.

It's not just that these tablets are mind-altering. They are only prescribed
to people with problems. Should these people have a licence to drive buses,
lorries or 2-litre cars ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 01, 2005 23:39 
Thqat's a good point Dowlais,

This is where the Government though show their true colours. Think about the lost revenue if they were to insist on making it an offence to drive whilst on prescription drugs.

Also, the pharmaceautical companies would throw a right wobbly. It has only been fairly recent that illegal drugs have been taken seriously.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 05:38 
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I know a few people who have a dubious records with drink drive
I know a couple of people who have fits or seisures who worry me driving
I dont know any one with a drug driving problem.


The fits or seisure catogory are very worying. one chap who convinced every one he was ok to drive had a fit at work. he didn't even have time to put his coffee down. Let alone time to bring a car to rest from 70.

He has been stopped from driving on a couple of occasions but got permission to drive again...

Quote:
Think about the lost revenue if they were to insist on making it an offence to drive whilst on prescription drugs.


A lot of prescription drugs have no side affects effecting driving at all.

There would be a complete breakdown in community if you banned every one on blood pressure tablets, antibotics, the pill,

I am sure you ment mind altering drugs. May be they need a clear identifier like a red packet or a logo or a warning as big as the "smoking kills" on a pack of ciggies. however some of these drugs are only a problem in large quantities. A 1% dose may calm a person so that they drive at near perfect. a 50% dose of the same drug may make them leathal.. does the packet get the same label?


Last edited by anton on Tue Sep 06, 2005 10:00, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 07:17 
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anton wrote:
He has been stopped from driving on a couple of occasions but got permission to drive again...

I knew someone like this... had a fit driving to work and met Mr Telegraph Pole. Dead at the age of 28 because he refused to stop driving.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Tue Sep 06, 2005 21:39 
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In Gear wrote:
Hi belladonna.

Know both Mad Doc and Wildy :neko: have posted before over prescription drug dangers and need to read labels and follow advice.



I've got a bit of a neurology problem and I stopped driving, before it was diagnosed, about fifteen years ago. I hadn't had an accident but I knew that for some reason I had a bad headache and my reaction-time had suddenly become very slow.

About four months later when I eventually saw a neurologist he went through the drill of calling in a colleague to hear my symptoms, and then they both told me that, as I knew already, I shouldn't be driving.

Perhaps there could be a formal procedure for certain prescription drugs; when the doctor prescribed them he might have to sign an additional form that the patient knew the dangers of both the malady and the disease; the patient would have to countersign and also fill in a risk-assessment regarding whether or not they drove a vehicle or operated machinery, etc.

It need not be too time-consuming for the doctor; the Practice-Nurse could do a lot of the donkey-work.

Hopefully it would help change the culture so that at-risk patients would adapt their lifestyles to accord with the limitations of their medical condition.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Wed Sep 07, 2005 06:57 
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There is no help for people forced to give up driving unless you qualify for disability living allowance which has very tough rules. Access to work can provide taxis or pay a driver but again you need DLA. It can mean people giving up thier job.


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Thu Sep 08, 2005 17:02 
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anton wrote:

There is no help for people forced to give up driving ...

It can mean people giving up thier job.



You've made a very good point Anton.

There should be help. Perhaps some spin-off from the DVLA could do something. There are an awful lot of people driving round who shouldn't be.

it will need finance. Perhaps a ring-fenced £5 on Road Tax ?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Fri Sep 09, 2005 08:12 
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The government should realise that by not supporting someone in access to work at the point where they are stopped driving, that they are likely to lose income tax and national insurance from that person as they de-skill to a nearer job or even leave employment totally and claim benefits. I know a lot of people with MS who left work as they were unsupported and then regretted it as the illness went into remission.

Government have offered free buss pases to people in reciept of DLA but to get DLA you need to be walking under 100m or unsafe outside your own home. How many people would qualify for this and be able to use it?


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 01:17 
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anton wrote:

How many people would qualify for this and be able to use it?



If some offshoot of the DVLA had some responsibility to encourage
people who shouldn't be driving to stop driving , and if they had a
Hardship Fund at their disposal (say a ring-fenced £5 on the annual Road
Tax), they could use the money for one-off grants or loans to help the
ex-drivers make appropriate changes to their life-style (buying the first
annual season ticket, or whatever).


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 Post subject:
PostPosted: Sat Sep 10, 2005 16:51 
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anton wrote:
I know a few people who have a dubious records with drink drive
I know a couple of people who have fits or seisures who worry me driving
I dont know any one with a drug driving problem.


The fits or seisure catogory are very worying. one chap who convinced every one he was ok to drive had a fit at work. he didn't even have time to put his coffee down. Let alone time to bring a car to rest from 70.

He has been stopped from driving on a couple of occasions but got permission to drive again...

Quote:
Think about the lost revenue if they were to insist on making it an offence to drive whilst on prescription drugs.


A lot of prescription drugs have no side affects effecting driving at all.

There would be a complete breakdown in community if you banned every one on blood pressure tablets, antibotics, the pill,


Liebchen...

Impossible to say how far we are affected as metabolism ist different for each of us. We are all a lot of :stirthepot: concoctions... :wink:

Side effect - may depend on does too und foods eaten as well. :wink: (Why we may recommend diet,,, in some cases... ist nothing to do with fact that patient may be a tub of lard :hehe:)

But to look at a few common prescription drug for cardiovascular system...

antarrhythmics (generics are amiodarone, dispyramide, flecaincide, lignocaine, mexiletine, procainamide, quinidiine, tocainide (Brand name mayt the generic)

But you must always tell doctor of any known disorder or allergy, suirgery of dental treatment - and if seeing dentist - you must inform as this can affect his choice of pain killer which he uses on you.. (They are not all like Olivier in "Marathon Man" (I have never quite liked the dentist since that scene :yikes:)

No matter.... side effects can be dizness or vision changes - und in case of amiodarone - avoid sunbathing and tanning machine as this can cause nasty rash....

Also if on such tablets - chew food slowly to release teh enzyme pytalin as this help digestion with these tablets... can cause the runs.. :yuck:


ANTI COAGULANTS - these help prevent blood clots - by interfering with Vitamin K

Generics are -- warfarin sodium, nicoumalone, pheindrone - typically. Any rise in body temperature when using these can be dangerous - so :nono: to sauna und solarium,

Can make one dizzy or drowsy - so we advise against driving, working mit machinery, working on high building site as precaution.

ANTIHYPERTENSIVES - traditonally to treat high blood pressure - they do this by causing the wall of of blood vessel to expand und some inhibit teh conversion of substances within the body which cause the contraction of the blood vessels - thus causing the blood to flow more easily. Others cause blood vessel to expand by affecting the part of the brain which controls the walls of these blood vessels... ist complicated - ja! UNd you thought ist so easy to prescribe the right one... from GP point of view :bunker:


These drugs can also be used to treat migraine as well...and blood circulation problem...

Generics are captrpril, clonidine, enalapril, hydralazine, indamide, indoramin, methyldopa...minoxidil und prazosin


(ist not wonder have spelling problems :hehe:) All the above do interact with other medicines - so you must tell doctor of any over counter taken and any homeopathic remedies...and tell the dentist as well...

You tell doctor if you note any water retention or swollen ankles, can cause gum disease - so essential to floss carefully und you feel hot und cold snaps more intensely.. in rare cases - can cause dizzy feeling - but not usual side effect. Thus - fairly safe to drive whilst on this medication - but do not drive if you expereince any diszzy feeling - see doctor as prolonged use may be cause and he can monitor over change of medication.

BETA BLOCKERS

These interfere with the action of stimulating hormones in the nervous system This slow down the strenght of heart's contractions und reduces oxygen requirements and vloume of blood heart has to pump. Hiogh bllod pressure can be treated with beta blocker because these increase the diameter of the blood vessels allowing blood to flow more easily

These also have diuretic which help reduce bllod presure - only you pee a bit more. We use these for heart problem, angina, bad circulation and migraine as well.

Generics are acebutolol, antenolol, betaxalol, labetalol, metoprolol, nadolol, oxprenolol, timolol. sotalol, penbutolol...

All can cause drowsiness in some patients (not uncommon - wears off after three quarter hour - would always plan journey on this basis ) :wink: - ist essential to be aware of self , tooth decay, vision disturbances in some and essential to mention to doctor as brand may be problem und we need to try one of the others for you. - labetalol ist one which has most severe side effect... Trandrate and Labracol brands are based on this generic.
Prolonged use may result in nightmares or sleep disturbances - so again need to see doctor over this - for change to milder or prescription which ist more suitable to your metabolism.

Driving only problem for thos on lebetalol as norm....



Calcium antagonists, (angina)/blood pressure)

generics - dilitiazem, lidoflaine, nicardipine, nifedipine, verapimil

und

cardiac glycosides and digitalis drugs rareely cause dizziness or drowsiness -

Antibiotics - depend on type - but common ones rearely cause much drowsy problem - ist question of reading label und listening to pharmacist und doctor - ist more common that they cause nausea which can affect driving - ist better to wait for one hour before driving if you experience any of this after taking common antibioitc.

Quote:
I am sure you ment mind altering drugs. May be they need a clear identifier like a red packet or a logo or a warning as big as the "smoking kills" on a pack of ciggies. however some of these drugs are only a problem in large quantities. A 1% dose may calm a person so that they drive at near perfect. a 50% dose of the same drug may make them leathal.. does the packet get the same label?



Antidepressants - again drowsiness ist inital but passes within hour - and you would be safe to drive on that basis - but usually this occurs if mixed with alocohol or overdosed. Prolonged use can damage liver over time.. so important to keep check on this.


There are number of such drugs which are on prescription - but normally patient would be too ill to drive anyway if on these ....

As for the illegal opiates which do affect mind to great exten - causing euphoria und extrem mood swing... ist probably the most dangerous und most of these drive on cocktail of mix of these drugs and drink...why they should never be readily avalailable und why eduication programme should be about seeking one's thrills without resorting to wasting one's life by tying down to a habit which you may think you can control - but reality tells us otherwise.


[/img]

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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 13:49 
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WildCat wrote:

... Impossible to say how far we are affected as metabolism ist different for each of us. ...

Side effect - may depend on does too und foods eaten as well. ...

antarrhythmics .... side effects can be dizness or vision changes


ANTI COAGULANTS -Can make one dizzy or drowsy - so we advise
against driving, working mit machinery, working on high building site as
precaution.


BETA BLOCKERS ....
All can cause drowsiness in some patients (not uncommon - wears off
after three quarter hour - would always plan journey on this basis ) ....
vision disturbances in some. Prolonged use may result in nightmares or
sleep disturbances ...

[/img]


A lot of drivers who only just failed the breath-test for alcohol would not
have noticed any adverse side-effects from the small amount of drink
that they had taken.

Should people on prescription medicine be placed in a privileged position ?

A lot of them have other problems too, and ought not to be driving because of those.

Driving is a privilege, not a right, and processes should be in place
to get people who shouldn't be driving off the road quietly and
discreetly - even if only for a few months until they can sort
themselves out - before they have had an accident and come to the
attention of the courts.


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PostPosted: Wed Sep 14, 2005 17:15 
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Dowlais wrote:
Driving is a privilege, not a right


I often read this. The statement is, with respect, quite clearly wrong. "Driving" or a "driving licence" is NOT a privilege. It is an entitlement, subject to conditions. The conditions are: test pass, satisfactory health and eyesight, maximum number of penalty points, etc.

The distinction is, imo, important. A "privilege" can be granted, withheld or withdrawn on the whim of the person in whose gift it resides. An entitlement cannot.


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PostPosted: Thu Sep 15, 2005 20:57 
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Dowlais wrote:
WildCat wrote:

... Impossible to say how far we are affected as metabolism ist different for each of us. ...

Side effect - may depend on does too und foods eaten as well. ...

antarrhythmics .... side effects can be dizness or vision changes


ANTI COAGULANTS -Can make one dizzy or drowsy - so we advise
against driving, working mit machinery, working on high building site as
precaution.


BETA BLOCKERS ....
All can cause drowsiness in some patients (not uncommon - wears off
after three quarter hour - would always plan journey on this basis ) ....
vision disturbances in some. Prolonged use may result in nightmares or
sleep disturbances ...

[/img]


A lot of drivers who only just failed the breath-test for alcohol would not
have noticed any adverse side-effects from the small amount of drink
that they had taken.




Posted about Mellanby effect some time ago --- twice I think - check archives. :wink:

Personally - do not even have one drink if I know or think I may drive before put of system ... yeah - am in the "knowdge situation" Have zero excuses if ever copped - so I never put myself in such a situation. :wink:
Quote:

Should people on prescription medicine be placed in a privileged position ?

A lot of them have other problems too, and ought not to be driving because of those.



You know - this is difficult for me and for my wife the Wildy :neko: cat as we were hit by a freak incindent which nearly ended my wife's life - she survived - as you all know ..

However, if a person satisfies all medical criteria and is competent in every way - then I see no reason to deny them their personal mobility - I do admit to be tougher than most in my particular field and some do accuse me of personal bias - only I could never knowingly allow a fellow human to go through my own experience ... and I do stress I stay objective and reluctantly make dire decisions....

Quote:

Driving is a privilege, not a right, and processes should be in place
to get people who shouldn't be driving off the road quietly and
discreetly - even if only for a few months until they can sort
themselves out - before they have had an accident and come to the
attention of the courts.


Yes - privilege or entitlement as Observer points out which can and should be withdrawn if certain criteria relating to competence and fitness are absent. I would even argue that be the case with pedal cycling on a main road. If you are drunk, on strong prescription drugs, prone to hear failure or black outs - then arguably you are not that safe on a push bike and should restrict activity to a cycle path which - I admit to not being ideal - at least places the vulnerable out of harm's way to some extent.

I am, fully aware that acf /Cplus lurkers and cyclists who do post on here will not be overly impressed with this comment. However, I argue that is is a fair, valid and objective observation. Not all cyclists are as healthy as they like to think when all's said and done.

I agree too many of us watch telly and do not take enough exercise - and will agree that riding a bicycle is an excellent form of exercise and means of meeting and socialising with others (as is fell walking and rambling and jogging and golf - I do all these activities myself ! - but I do not do "rose coloured specatacles"! Enjoy driving, riding bikes and horses, walking and golf...but feet are firmly on ground! :wink:

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