Safe Speed Forums

Hello.

Got caught doing 112mph on the M6 at Lymm on 3/8/08 by unmarked traffic car. Got NIP through and due in court on Friday 10th. I spoke to keepondriving.com, who, based on what i told them, and my circumstances, advised that i should represent myself as i am going to plead guilty.

I am reasonably happy to speak in court, but very unsure of what to do. I have read a lot of posts highlighting importance of appearance, politeness and so on, but I do not know what to do with the like of the income/outgoings form and the letter that i'll get from my company saying I need my license for my job. Can someone please advise as to the process of court, from turning up an hour before, to what stages are actually involved in the court room.

I plan to admit to what I did, and highlight that there is no excuse for this. I had driven to Scotland for a family members funeral and had been held up in bad traffic, but that this is in no way justification for breaking the limit. My actions may well put my job in jeopardy and has caused me considerable distress and worry over the last few months.

Also, if the income/outgoings form shows a reasonable amount of money left at the end of each month, is this likely to influence a larger fine and less of/no ban?

I have visions of large fines and 6 month to 1 year bans. Realistically, what sort of punishment do you think i'm likely to be facing?

Sorry to ask so many questions, i'm just starting to get to the panic stage.

Also, the officers statement highlights that weather was fine, road dry and visibility good. I had 6 points on my license 5 years ago which are still marked on the counter part (had to resit test at the time - newly qualified rule). License also has old address on it - but still have family there and contactable through it.

Well you have zero other options here

Oh dear.



Get witness statement spot on. You will be questioned n this to establish whether or not mitigation warranted. Make sure you word correctlly or know more or less intimately what you said



Make sure you put this point across straight forwardly and that you have learned a very hard lesson already. Ask lawyer as best way to gt this across if you are trying to get leniency on "hardship plea"



Not in Uk .. yet.



Worst case? 6 month ban.

Best .. whopping fine but keeping mobility.

Based on experience of providing the ammo against to date.

Get decent legal advice. Be honest and try to show a learning curve.

Hope it wors out OK for you,

Let us know.. and - Whatever happens - your point of view always welcome in any debate...




Ahhhh. Missed this bit.


Your 6 points will have expired as they are over 4 years old. That's the good news.

The bad news and which you need to address immediately - is getting your licence to reflect your current permanent place of abode. If you are still more or less "based at your parents'" - then fine.

But if you have your own place - as a permanent home of your own - then you have to advise DVLA of this immediately. Thy charge £20 for a new card and counterpart - which will not show your new points - but will show any new ones.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Appearance will not make any difference. Defendants are sentenced on the seriousness of the offence, ability to pay and any relevant previous history. There is no power for a court to increase or decrease sentence because the defendant does or does not wear a suit.

Fill in the means form CAREFULLY. It may be in units of a week or a month depending on local practice. Make sure you calculate your income and outgoings to reflect that. You may be asked to confirm the contents of the form on oath so don't "adjust" any numbers. Keep the form until you are asked for it. When asked if there is anything you want to say, tell them about the letter.

Turn up early and book in at the desk. As an unrepresented defendant you may well be called on first. If you are not called first, go into court and sit at the back to watch a few other cases to see the procedure. When you are called the usher or clerk will tell you where to stand. You probably won't be asked to stand in the dock but will be in the well of the court ie where the lawyers sit. Remain standing until told to sit, which will be after you have confirmed your name and address. You will be asked to say if you plead guilty or not guilty. If you say guilty you will be told to sit down. The prosecution will tell the court the facts of the case. You will then be asked to stand and put your side. When speaking, direct your comments to the chair of the bench - the one sitting in the middle seat. Say Sir if he is male. Say Madam if she is female. The bench or clerk may ask a few questions to be sure they fully understand what you have said. You will be told to sit down while they consider the sentence. They may go out of court to do that. You will be asked to stand and the chair will announce the sentence. They may then ask about how you will pay. If you can pay it all at once - do so and get it over with. if you can't then tell them and they will arrange for time to organise that. Usually you get either 7 or 14 days in which to contact the court office to make mutually acceptable stage payments.


Fines are related to the seriousness of the offending and ability to pay. You can't bargain big fines against less points or shorter ban.

At 112 in a 70 you are off the top of the scale in the guidelines. Based on what you have said - but no guarantee as I don't know what the prosecution will say - think in terms of a fine of about 1 or 2 weeks pay and a ban in the region of 56 days. If you produce evidence of exceptional hardship the ban could be shorter, or they may impose 6 points.

Not relevant as speeding points expire after 3 years.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Points have to declared for three years for the routines such as hiring cars and so on. You have to declare to insurers for 5 years - and they are only removed from the counterfoil and DVLA record after 4 years.

It may then have mattered last year when the points were 4 years old - but not this time as completely irrelevant and will not feature at any one time in the hearing of this case - which focuses on the unwise choice of 112 mph on a a stretch of the M6 which employs "stealthmobiles"

To Richard .. be yourself in court. Dress as you normally do for the office, Be as honest, candid and calm as per your opening post and explain the circumstances with the same regret which comes across in your post. Whatever happens - you are not looking at a prison sentence and the worst outcome - would be a short ban as fisherman points out. If you manage to convince of undue hardship - you may receive 6 -9 points if they wish to give benefit of doubt on a short ban.

Let us know how it went - good or bad - and don't let it put you off driving or the police/magistrates You need COAST or the IAM's help to keep it safer

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

From the court's perspective - speeding points are only relevant for sentencing purposes for 3 years from date of offence.

The absolute maximum for a single speeding offence is 6.

_________________
I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Ah.. but if a new offence is committed and take to limit in the FOURTH year - then it can count towards the ban on tot-up per established case law.


[/quote]


Ah... I was thinking a more serious offence than pure "speeding" - which would be the case in our patch We may not do speed cams - but "soft touch" - that we ain't.



.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

The last road traffic sentencing training I had - about a month ago - confirmed no changes in totting up rules. ie that only "live" points can be taken into consideration. In the case of speeding points that would be 3 years from date of offence for which points were imposed to the date on which the offence taking the driver to 12 or more happened. The period between the first offence and being in court to be banned for totting up to 12 can be well over 3 years as it is the date of the offence(s) that matters not court dates.

Do you have a reference to the case law you mentioned?

_________________
I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Looking it up. I think there are two cases which establish the logic of the fourth year of points remaining on licence and they relate to final offence being committed close to expiry date of the first set of points.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Hi guys, i'm overwhelmed with your responses, thank you so much for taking the time to provide me with so much information and advice.
The statement below is roughly what I plan on saying on the day (although I think I will now remove the mention of prior points). If I should keep hold of the letter and the income sheet, does this mean I do not have to send a notice of intention to plead guilty to the clerk before I go? Also, my girlfriend has recently moved in with me, is she legally my partner, and therefore required to put her income on the form? Am I correct in presuming that I don't need to take a copy of company insurance policy, but should take pay-slip and a bank statement, as well as any bills that don't appear on bank statement. I read elsewhere that I should provide a summary of my argument, is this correct?


"First of all I want to say that I am ashamed to be in court and that I am not here to defend my actions, of which I fully understand the seriousness of and wholeheartedly admit to. For his reason, and so as not to waste the courts time I have pleaded guilty.

I am not a regular excessive speeder and I genuinely believe that speeding is a very serious offence & I cannot offer any excuse or explanation as to why I should be travelling at that speed.

To take nothing away from the seriousness of what I have done, I was returning from Scotland from a family funeral which had ended in a family argument. There had been extremely heavy traffic on the M74 and I had sat in stationary traffic for 3 hours, in what is usually the clear part of the drive to London. These events were playing on my mind at the time, and combined with the decrease in the volume of traffic resulted in a momentary lapse in judging my speed. However, in no way whatsoever do I regard this as a justification or excuse for my actions. As I said to officer xxxxxx at the time, ‘there’s no excuse’.

I received 3 points for speeding nearly 5 years ago, and thought I had learnt my lesson. Since then I have taken pride in the manner in which I drive and my good driving record, especially given the high number of miles I travel.

I realise that the offence puts me in a situation where my license can be taken away but I do wish for you to consider the possible effects this may have on my employment. My company have not gone as far as saying this, but I genuinely fear that losing my license may result in a change of position, as my ability to drive all over the country is necessary for my job.

If the court can see its way to enabling me to continue driving I will ensure that I will not exceed speed limits as it has really made me realise just how foolish my actions have been, and how they can not only affect those on the road but also others around me. I would also take steps to try to make sure that this would never happen again and I am very willing to attend any driving course that may help in this decision. Last week I took part in an advanced road safety course, and I have been looking into the advanced motoring test.

That’s all that I would like to say. Please rest assured that regardless of what punishment you deem necessary, I will not put myself in this position again, and I will endeavor wholeheartedly to ensure that my driving is impeccable at all times."

I would cut all of this.
As far as the court are concerned there are no excuses. so don't enrage them with excuses. Keep it short. replace with "It was a one of moment of misjudgement and it will not happen again. "

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

I agree, do you have a letter from your employer?

the court will know about the points so there is no point your saying anything.


If you are attending in person there is no need to tell them your plea in advance UNLESS they have sent a letter requesting that you do so.



You can easily fall foul of this one and get into real trouble. If she is resident with you, shares all the expenses and the form asks for her income you need to declare it. The only exception would be if she does not contribute to the household expenses. In which case a note to the effect that she lives with you but does not contribute financially or that she pays for half the food but none of the rent would suffice.


You will only need the insurance policy if charged with an insurance offence. Courts usually take your statement of income and outgoings at face value, so no proof is needed unless they have specifically asked for it. Remember that if they doubt your figures they can ask for confirmation on oath. Which could be followed up by enquiries to the tax man and your employers if they think you are telling porkies.


only if intending to plead not guilty. If pleading guilty you have no argument.




As far as your statement goes. Make sure the court knows you admitted fault as soon as you were stopped. Make sure you mention the funeral and family argument. To my mind - and I sentence a lot of motoring offences - this is your best hope of persuading the bench that the speed was out of character. Just about every driver we see says the offence was out of character. Very few are able to back that up in the way that you are.

_________________
I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Thanks again Fisherman, i'll play it safe with the means from and put her income down - don't want to make matters wrose.
I've attached the letter I received from my company today, fairly worrying! Do you think they'll take much notice of this?

Kind Regards,
Richard

I have no problem with giving general advice about court procedure, which simply tells you what will happen.

I have a little difficulty in giving hints about what to say, but did so in this case, when I advised you to mention the family funeral and argument, as I felt it important for you to have accurate information. Specifically I need to state that the court will not be enraged by you giving an honest opinion as to why you broke the law. Also, while excuses may not be accepted as a defence, they may well be of value to you as mitigation to reduce the sentence.


It would be wrong of me to comment in any way on the letter from your employer as it will become evidence in court proceedings and that is definitely a step too far. I hope I have been able to help a little and am sorry I can't respond this time.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Fisherman, you have been fantastic help and it's greatly appreciated. I'm sorry if I put you in an awkward position with the letter. Hopefully the magistrate tomorrow will be as fair and understanding as you have been towards me. I'll let you know how it goes.

Kind Regards,
Richard

I can't see anyone getting enraged if you are being honest and quite clearly not putting the events forward as and excuse, merely as mitigation. All of your proposed statement sounds wholly reasonable and earnest, and I would suggest putting it forward in such a manner. I would recommend wearing suit, since although it may not affect the sentence, it shows respect, and reflect how seriously you take the proceedings.

Best of luck!

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Richard .. whatever happens tomorrow - let us known. For record .. fisherman and me have met umpteen of your type before. Decent and honest.. but failed to observe the COAST as marked by DIS/SPeed Aware courses.



Be "casual smart in appearance."

Be honest. You are pleading guiilty - so be honest when questioned but try to get across that you need your job and accept you were a bit silly in this instance in hindsight. Try to get across that you are not normally so "silly" as best you can.

I wish you - sincerely - a decent outcome.

Let us know what did happen. I can asssure you that I will respect your views .. even if ou vent your spleen at me as some folk on this board do on occasiion. I do not take offence. I understand that some may wish to vent spleens.

I know they are not angry with me... but with the "system" I try . really try to rebuild the bridge of mutual trust, I think I succeed to a limited extent as recent stories in the press have even shaken those mad cats whose support we do actually need here. Police need such negative as a hole in head here


But . let us know. I can assure you will get respect. You have already earned this.

Keep in touch. What happens willl happen. You have my word that I willl respect your opinion soe what happens... and if it does go pear shaped for you peronally - your experience helps the eudcation process and makees your daft misdemour help positively.
]

So my advvice will be to keep POSITIVE THOUGTHS in mind

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

My fault entirely. I just answered your questions without letting you know that there was a point at which I would have to back out.
Good luck.

_________________
I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Hi guys,
Well, had court on Friday. Went quite well. The potential effect of my employment seemed to be the clincher. Got 42 day ban and £370 fine incl. costs etc.
Thanks again for all your help. Can't wait till I get back on the road though - bike sure does hurt the arse!

Richard

How many points were received?

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Currently undergoing training with the I.A.M.