Safe Speed Forums

Hi all,

On Sunday just gone I was driving home on a country road at around 12 midday on a road I had been down not an hour before to get to where I was going. This road is by an large a national limit, apart from one very small stretch of about 200m that is a 30mph. Anyway, I entered the 30 limit and slowed down from what I was doing - but I didn't slow down to 30.

As I was driving along, I caught sight of something red and yellow in my blindspot on the passenger side. It was only for a microsecond and I had no real chance to see what it was at all - the back end of the vas was pointing towards me (I think). Anyway, this van had completely blindsided me. If you imagine I was on the left hand side of the road by houses and bushes and then there is a slip road that goes off at 90 degrees and the van is parked on the left hand kurb (so essentially no chance to see it)

I am 100% sure the van was not there to catch people like me. I was driving towards the next national speed limit and it was just round the corner, and the way the corner is positioned makes me certain it was pointing towards that corner trapping people as they come into the 30 zone from the other side. Now I just remember looking in my rear view mirror, seeing a tripod and an open side door and thinking....shit. I did briefly look down and was doing around 35. I must point out at this point there was traffic coming the other way around the same time but I have no way of knowing where in relation to when I crossed his laser path (which I must have for him to be pointed accross the road to oncoming traffic). Details on what kind of camera it was are sketchy - it just looked like a tripod with a lense to me.

My question is simple. He was hidden away from me on that side of the road (but not from the other side) and there was not a chance in hell I could of got a proper look at what he was doing without taking my eyes off the road and twisting my neck. It completely blindsided me apart from the colours as I went past.

I've included a diagram - hope it helps out if you can't understand that.



Help and advice appreciated.

It would help if you stated which County the Dick Turpin was operating in??

It's Singleton, on the Fylde in Lancashire, here:

http://www.streetmap.co.uk/map.srf?X=338175&Y=438077&A=Y&Z=120

I think the OP just has to wait and see if he gets an NIP in the post, which hopefully he won't. Until that has happened any reply is pure speculation.

Bear in mind that lack of warning signage and/or concealment of cameras does not in any circumstances invalidate any resulting prosections, unless the speed limit signing itself is incorrect.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed

Sorry, this is in Lancashire on the Fylde, at about 10:30am on a Sunday morning on a B road. No excuse I know but you would think they have better things to do with their time.

Cheers for the replies, I will let you know in due course what happens. I'm already 2 days into the 14 day countdown!

Pity you live in the same County as the camera was operating in otherwise you might have had the opportunity of ignoring it and wait for the second one to arrive as they have no proof that you received it, if the second one is not by recorded post how can they claim thjat you received it. The NIP states that you MUST use recorded delivery with your licence and payment as, "proof of posting is not proof of delivery" which in my book means that they should have to prove that you did receive the NIP. Don't take my word but this is just for information only. Did you access the report I quoted.? If not, you should do so. The dealings I had with Lancashire was the worst force I have ever known, complete and utter idiots. I should have taken them to the IPCC but the time factor had passed. Read that report on this web site and you will see what we are all up against.OLLIE

I'm just going to wait and see if anything comes through in the 14 days. After then, I'll decide what the best move is. Cheers for the replies guys!

MphA
Do let us know how you get on.

I do think from the image you have shown that perhaps as you observed the corner and junction more caution was called for.
[I appreciate that this is being wise after the event, but if you were traveling so that you could not have properly considered traffic from the junction, could you really have dealt with (time to react), any type of potential hazard at the junction or nearby?]

I am hoping to find out what you were thinking about that enabled the 'failure' to ease off and allow for the new short length condition change ?
We hope to always encourage driving to conditions, so that you cannot stop in the distance that you can see to be clear in - this enables that all road users are traveling at a safe speed.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

That is your view. As I have already pointed out in another thread, the law takes a different view.



The Interpretation Act 1978 s7 states

Italics are mine for emphasis

The authorities only have to show that they posted the NIP to create a rebuttable presumption of delivery. To rebut delivery the person to whom the NIP was addressed needs to go to court and state, on oath, that the NIP was not received. Which is no problem if true. If, however, the addressee has thrown the NIP away, things are more serious. He or she must either maintain the pretence by lying on oath, or admit that they threw away an official communication from the justice system in a vain attempt to avoid prosecution. In both cases a charge of attempting to pervert the course of justice becomes possible with, if found guilty, an almost inevitable custodial sentence.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Don't get me wrong, I did ease off and I had slowed down significantly. It was a national limit and I was doing around 55mph but came down to around 35mph. It was a Sunday morning, on a B road and there was no camera when I passed an hour before the other way, and it was for such a short distance - I think anyone that says they wouldn't be creeping up and over 30 is a little dubious. (Make no mistake - I am considerate. The conditions as above were why I was over, had there been a school or a church nearby, or any kind of major residential area then I would of done the limit, and in hindsight I wish I had)

Traffic from that junction isn't really an issue. It is a very quiet road anyway, and from the diagram you can see that I've just come from a mini-roundabout. While I didn't have to slow completely for this, it did dock my speed down to the 15-20mph mark and in a 1.0L VW Polo, acceleration isn't so nippy so I wouldn't of had a problem with reacting to hazards!

I can understand where your coming from, but until you actually drive the road and see where it was located for yourself, it's tricky to comment with accuracy - but I appreicate the replies.

In relation to the other posts, I wouldn't throw the NIP away if I was to recieve one. I am hopefull that if I have been caught that as a first time offender with a squeeky clean license that I will be offered the Speed Awareness Course. I have had a quick look online and I'm confident that I was doing well within the guidelines to be offered one if caught (in the Lancs constituency of course)

Just a small note on the democracy that we have in the UK. If one now challenges a driving offence in court and wins their case then they still have to pay their own costs. The prosecution of course (police) do not have any costs to pay when a case is lost. This is true democracy as installed by our wonderful Government. Anyone watch BGT? Then you know the meaning of the initials. Britains Got Thieves, and they're in Westminster.
With the state of the postal service how can the SCP (Police) prove that one received the NIP? If I remember correctly they SHOULD send (are obliged to send ) a second one by registered post. We have received mail not of our own on many occasions. I note that you keep trying to compound on this but what response have you to the report of G Luxford and the Northants police (SCP)? An utter shambles of a law enforcement agency . A disgrace to the uniform they wear and it is those who should be standing before the beak but of course they can take early retirement an get out of all charges which they should face. A b----y shambles of a police force. Dr Luxford proved beyond any doubt that the LTi 20-20 is a usless piece of equipment for the task required and that it is also being challenged as to its legal use. Never mind, we can all be b----y cheats sometimes but most of all those in power who will never admit to any wrong doing. It makes me feel ashamed that my father served 34 years when the forces were at their best but have now been changed into league table players and finance generators. Are you one of the above Fisherman or do you have an halo. I could never accept the evidence of any police officer in todays world after what I have observed these past few years. OLLIE

No different to what yo have already stated my friend. Just how would they confirm that it had been posted when everything is automated and on the conveyor belt. NIPs are not booked out in any detail. Without recorded delivery they have NO PROOF that it has been either posted or received. Now. Like a good politian you have evaded my question on the case of Luxford v Northants and the depths to which they sank to overcome a situation of their own making. Don't forget you keep claiming "on oath" and yet they saw fit to lie and cheat at every opportunity to gain a conviction and try to justify their use of the LTi 20-20 and at the same time extricate themselves from the depths of the gutter. Please Sir can I have your answer?? We will then see who is neutral on this site in matters of honesty and integrety. By the way. My friends wife who ignored her NIP on my advice and heard nothing also had their friend do the same and he also heard nothing. This was from the same SCP who are one of those who castigate the motorist for exceeding any limits and have a very well know C/C.
Policing today has sunk into a league table of figures for prosections and its not the front line at fault but those in senior positions who are minions of Central Government who conform to their wishes. What a Country we have fallen into, police who cheat and lie, a Government who feed off the public like pigs at a trough but consider to have done nothing wrong with claiming an alarming amount for expenses and being able to live off the backs of those who have grafted for many years and also had their pensions taken away through no fault of their own. No my friend. When we have a reformed law and justice system then the public might just accept some of the controls impounded upon us but not those in the name of road safety. Comments Please Fisherman.!!!!

Fisherman. You quote that a custodial sentance would PERHAPS arise.Well, as I have stated previously, I have plenty of time and if they require some of it then I could oblige. More time than money you see.!!!

nearly right. As from the end of october any defendant who is found not guilty will be limited in the amount he can claim in costs. The limit is set at legal aid rates. BTW - the police don't prosecute, the CPS do.


Read the Interpretation Act to which I have already referred you. More than once.


You don't remember correctly.


The highest standard of proof required from defendants is the balance of probabilities, and even that is only balanced against the CPS evidence in that specific case.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Interpretation Act.


A record is kept of the date, the name and address to which it is sent, the contents of the envelope, the case number and the name of the person responsible.


Interpretation Act



I have only seen the report by Dr luxford. Which is only one side of the story. Without knowing the ALL details I am not prepared to guess.


If you have evidence that anybody lied on oath in a court case you need to lay an information with the Clerk to the Justices of the county where the case was heard. The allegations will then be investigated and, if proved, court action will follow. You will then go down in history as the person who was responsible for SCP staff going to jail You would never need to buy another drink again.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

I expect that the Northants C/C had made his application to retire before all this came into the arena.? These personnel do not retire when in such a powerful and well paid position, they even get a bonus for the performance of the forces.
To quote a piece from that report.--


The resulting investigation they were ordered to carry out by the IPCC,showed that there had been an appreciable mal practice in the operation of speed camera video processing equipment as a result of inadequate training,supervision and auditing. In this it was possible for other corrupt video evidence to have been used for the conviction of innocent drivers, with potentiallly disatrous consequenses for their lives and livlihoods.
Private discussions I since had with a member of the Northants police indicated that the training for the use of mobile speed cameras was inadequate,that the operating manuals were often not available to provide instructions for the equipment,to ensure that it was set up correctly. It was also indicated that the required alignment and calibration checks, to ensure their accurate operation,were seldon carried out, particularly where there was no recorded video evidence to show this.

The above is only a short extract but does reflect the calibre of those who are enforcing the laws and persecuting drivers in the name of road safety. As Dr Luxford has a PhD in lazer technology and related areas including speed and light measurement with moving objects (at NASA) I take it that you consider his report to be unacceptable and must be lies "ON OATH"? My friend I have dealt with better rougues than those at Northants who are converyors of lies in the fullest order. They, together with those at Westminster should be on the first boat to Afghanistan and see what life is really about, I have never been so alienated by what has transpired with Northants SCP/police.
I am well aware that it is the CPS who do the prosecutions but they together with police, magistrates, Councils, etc are all tied to the same brush, where is a fair outcome with such stacked against one.? Finance generators for Central government. I wonder just how many would disclose their occupations in the pub.?
It is a uniform that I would not wear today but I would be proud to wear my veterans uniform because that would reflect that I SERVED my Country and did not ruined it as others have done. I take it that the above quote will be cast aside as with all evidence in the justice system when it does not suit that which is required. Lets have more Dr Luxfords, and the sooner the better. OLLIE

Sorry to interupt your discussion, I had a quick read and to be honest, I don't see much point in fighting so hard over £60 and 3 potential points. If I wasn't to reply, then it just opens up more avenues of trouble rather than getting it over and done with.

On the plus side, today is day 7 and I have recieved no NIP. I know I need to wait until next Saturday (or next Monday to be completely sure) but from what I can gather Lancs are pretty on the ball with their tickets and as each day passes I'm getting more confident.

Just to add, I've been talkng to some people about this and they seem to be questioning the legality of being zapped from behind, especially when the van wasn't labelled (when I went past it could of easily been mistaken for a Dyno-Rod van). Just wondered if anyone could shed any light on this as I am completely hopeless when it comes to traffic law (which is slightly embarrasing as I'm a university law student!)

Fingers crossed all, 7 to go!

Never count your chickens before they hatch young man. I had dealings with the Lancashire SCP who sent me a NIP to obtain the name of the driver of my PREVIOUS vehicle that I had disposed of 18months previously and I had informed the DVLA. However. That wasn't good enough for them but I fired some bullets into them and they then didn't know what they were doing. My complaint was recorded as "command and control" but I should have taken it to the IPCC but the time limit had expired. Their last letter to me quoted my present vehicle Reg No as the vehicle being involved with the speed offence. A complete and utter shower in Lancs, all of the complaint department being operated by civilians. The C/C didn't get involved and kept well out of it, his aid sending a quick quote on the matter.
The subject is not just about your £60 and three points but about the so called democracy we have and those who are supposed to impliment the law in a none bais system. If everyone just accepted everything that was claimed by those in power we would be in a far worse state than we find ourselves to day. Just reflect on those at Westminster, if it wasn't for a few that stood up to these morons they would still be picking our pockets. By the sound of things you have a world of subjects to learn about. If you stand your ground they don't like it because then they are on the back foot and it consumes their time and also some of their intelligence, thats if they have any of course.

With regards to the vehicle being unmarked many forces are adopting covert camera vehicles in an attempt to up their finance generating figures and yes, you can be zapped travelling either way. Your concentraion will now be focused not on the road but around it looking for other Dick Turpins as with many others who have had the same expeience.

Your reading far too much into my arguement! In no way am I counting my chickens, I know that until next Monday I really can't rest easy. I know you say the subject is just about my 3 points (more likely to be naughty driver course - 1st time offender and was only slightly over but we'll see) and the fine but for me that is where I draw the line. Challenging it would be a waste of my time and as a student, money I simply don't have. While I can stump up the £60 if needs be, I don't have the money or facilities to be challenging it in court for what would only really serve as a moral victory.

This is of course by no means saying that others should just roll over and take it. I am fully aware that speed cameras are the biggest injustice in this country, and I think placings like the one I was potentially caught on show that. As I've already said, I would have no quarms if I came around a corner and it was staring me smack in the face. If others want to take it the whole distance then I applaud them and if they win, then even better, it sets a great example and the higher these cases get, it's bound to start setting precedents that police will have to follow.

As I ever, I appreciate the replies.

Thanks.

Everything I've read indicates that you can indeed be zapped both ways and that's not really what I was after - I was really on about the placement of the camera in relation to my direction of travel. You are right, it is incredibly covert and really more dangerous than anything as to see it, it requires you to take your eyes off that road. And that doesn't end well.

I normally observe the speed limits (mainly because in a 1.0 Polo, I don't have much choice!) but I'm not going to lie to you. It was a Sunday morning, it was a really nice driving road, I had Smooth Criminal blasting out and I got caught up in the moment!