Safe Speed Forums

There's nothing moral about the way decriminalised offences are profiteered from, so why should there be anything moral about the way people deal with it?

My last PCN was for not parking wholly within the markings- the front of my van overhung the bay over some single yellow line, not in any way causing any bother to anyone. I appealed the ticket, not because it was unfair, unjust and downright pathetic, but because the white markings of the bay in question were incomplete making the traffic order invalid.

Menial regulations are more important than common sense and fair mindedness, you have to be acutely aware of this or you'll be fined hundreds of pounds, so can you say you're surprised if people base their attitude around that?

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Fear is a weapon of mass distraction

I put it to you that the authorities are morally taking the piss, by enforcing when they cannot even follow their own rules regarding markings and signage.

There is no question of intent without an offending act.

Utilising all available road space reduces congestion for all, get over your contentious queue-jumping attitude and realise that we all share the same goal on the roads, to get where we are going safely and with a minimum of delay, and you will see that we should all be working together for the good of all.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

So you're saying it's alright for us to use bus lanes then?
What about hard shoulders on motorways?
Shall we use them as well to get past queues if there's nobody using them?

Being obtuse again are we?

Would "all legally available roadspace" spell it out clearly enough for you? If the lines and signs do not conform, then the roadspace is legally available.

Hard shoulders on some motorways are legally used to alleviate congestion.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

No, I'm being 'technical'.

Maybe you'd like to advise us how to determine what is a "legally" available road space when you are driving? Do you stop, measure and enter? (in a Gordon Brittas-esque voice, "Ooh, this lane is 1.441mm short of regulation c2.para 36 line 6 therefore it's prudent and legal to enter")

Well, you probably do, but the vast majority of people who have a shade of not wanting to piss other people off or deal with a fine would just avoid the bus lane in the first place and avoid the whole issue.

You've just reinforced my belief that there should be a "wilful entry" offence to replace any catch-all offence that may currently exist. On the one hand, it will acquit transgressors who entered the lane in error, and on the other hand it will be able to nail those who use the lane for selfish, personal gain (as I would allege ranger1640 did), reducing road rage and frustration, which will give far more benefits to everyone else in the long run.

If you're suggesting that certain motoring offences should cease to be strict liability, then I would agree. If, however, you're suggesting that we make an offence based solely on intent, mens rea in the absence of actus reus, then I suggest you go back to fantasising over Minority Report!

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

Not yet they're not.

So if there's a whole line of people who are not in the bus lane you think it's OK for somebody else to drive up the inside of it and push in the queue at the front?



I'm loving your idea of all the cars in a bus lane freely changing out of it when a bus comes along and the bus sweeping up unhindered and then changing back in behind it...



And cyclists when they are baulked by buses presumably (but I'm not expecting anything tending toward perspective here).

I strongly disagree with kerbed off lanes for anything, but if you support people like the OP in their desire to steal a march on other road users by using roadspace that's obviously reserved for something else (and which other people are respecting) then that's what's going to happen next!

I can't ever recall anyone doing that. I'm not saying to doesn't happen but most bus lane 'users' are usually trying to get to a left turn.......

Such as the case I had the other week. The traffic going straight on at a set of TLs is at a stand still caused by something going on beyond the lights and the queue is back passed the bus lane termination and I want to turn left and that lane is clear. Seeing as I'm not sure if the local Stasi have cameras yet I sit in the traffic - only 10 minutes, what the heck. Or a little further up the same road we get someone turning right into a minor road in the face of flowing rush hour traffic. Empty bus lane to our left and dozens of us sat like burks in the RH lane. we were a minute or two there as well.

You may have gathered from this I'm no great fan of bus lanes (they're a great congestion creator for sure), as for the OP given how sly, greedy and petty our authorities have become - witness the dodgy lens being used on a camera for that bridge only wide enough for one car in London - good luck to him. No quarter given and non taken in cases like this.

Barkstar

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The difference between intelligence and stupidity is that intelligence has limits.

Prosecutions are often made for conspiring to commit a crime. That appears to me mes rea without actus reus

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

There is no line to draw. If the law says 250, then 250 it must be. In that case, 249.998 is too small by .002.

Just as driving at 30.002mph is an offence.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

All this debate over an offence that carries NO POINTS and just a £30 fine. Just pay the fine!

Unless of course you are protesting out of principle but if you had these principles you wouldnt have been using a bus lane to queue jump in the first place.

Technicalities, Technicalities and then there are Technicalities.


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstop ... nnies.html

The Department of Transport publications Traffic Signs manual Chapters 3 and 5 give details of how a Bus Lane should be signed and marked out

If you have a query get you’re measuring tape out and see if the alleged Bus Lane you were in is up to the DoT spec.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/pgr/roads/tss/tsmanual/

Well the big issue with bus lanes is that they are often a waste of road space and create congestion where previously there was none (a good example is the bus lane on the A41 between Tranmere and Queensway Tunnel, in Birkenhead. That road used to flow pretty well even during the morning rush hour (not many decent ordinary jobs on the Wirral, so lots of people commute to Liverpool or Manchester) so they slap down a bus lane which at best sees a bus once every 15 minutes.

This just creates needless congestion, pollution and wastes fuel for people, and for those who remember the road before the bus lane it's like receiving a big two finger salute from the council every morning. I'm not surprised that people want to drive in it and don't really begrudge anyone that chooses to take the risk.

In addition some of them are awfully confusing as to what times cars are allowed in them. The times on the signs are written in tiny letters that aren't really possible to read safely while also in control of a moving car

Personally I wonder about the feasibility of changing the bus lane offence from simply being there to one of causing delay to a bus. If a bus is coming you have to get out of the bus lane. I suspect this would cause other issues as people try to barge into the other lane to avoid prosecution, however.

Rather like disabled parking bays which are so often empty, forcing able bodied drivers to park illegally

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Disabled bays don't cause anything like the congestion that bus lanes cause though. Their positioning is generally better thought out and they do tend to get used, at least more often than a lot of bus lanes.

Just to keep you all up to date the Bus Lane Fixed Penalty has been scrubbed. Cops got in touch and hey presto no fine.

Bus lanes don't cause congestion.

A bus lane during rush hour conveys many many more people than the car lane next to it, certainly in London. If you closed the bus lane, got rid of the buses and made all the displaced people drive their car to work then that WOULD cause congestion.