Safe Speed Forums

You posted this earlier in this thread. It relates specifically to the delivery of NIPs

This is incorrect. The Interpretation Act 1978 s7 states
Italics are mine for emphasis

They only have to show that they posted the NIP to create a rebuttable presumption of delivery. To rebut delivery the addressee of the NIP needs to go to court and state, on oath, that the NIP was not received. Which is no problem if true. If, however, the addressee has assumed your information to be accurate and thrown the NIP away, things are more serious. He or she must either maintain the pretence by lying on oath, or admit that they threw away an official communication from the justice system in a vain attempt to avoid prosecution.

Advice or information? Doesn't really matter what you call it. The important thing is that people are aware its not true.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Ollie// sadly folk do not understand their cars or have some glib or blind faith in what they do not really know how to use.


Note well: I have never said plod training makes any officer invinciible but rather enhances to potential all latent skills. This does not mean "better than decently able member of public". But perhaps on a par/equal to. To claim otherwise seems to me to be unworthy/not dignified and perhaps evidence of instutionalised complacency.

I will say the laws of physics and kinetic force prevail. What changes is the ABS/tools to avoid and steer out of a crunch and crunple zones which mean a kid could survive if hit at 30 mph and provided head did not meet with concrete.


In short . the COAST idea saves lives as this controls speed. as it makes us responsible decision makers.. who plan for each eventuality.

I am not wrong. Look at the kids killed in driveways and other low speed impacts caused by COAST fails.

Basically I am sayin we are all responsible . and COAST demands actually give no quarter on our responsibilities here. It';s actually takes more skills to aspire to. Tis why those who fart the loudest over it are the ones who end up having accidents or getting pinged by a cam

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

\indeed fisherman


We are all obligated/required to complete any such NIP form but have the right to dispute the charges or claim a mitigation (for which there would be proof)



I would suggest seeking all legal advice..if disputing a charge .. and shopping around via the free interviews. For most . this will be their first brush with the law and solicitors . . and the free initials are your "interviewing them for your custom"

This applies to our patch who have police who actually see the offence with own eys just as much as the remote camera. Difference here and in N Yorks? Immediate pull . person knows and understands why. Scam zone? Only know about it 14 days later when they cannot recalll and this leads to the anger.bitter resentment/. hostility towards police.

It's really counter-productive as a teaching tool

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Update:

Mama has been offered an SAC. Unfortunately she is a night nurse hence sleeps during the day, so she is seriously considering just taking the points!

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Thats Ok. I slept through most of my SAC

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

How do you respond to the following?
A judge or magistrate has to sentence by guidelines but where the operation of speed detection equipment is concerned then these guidelines can be disregarded. Viz.- DfT literature.--
The camera and signs should be visable at 60Mtrs & 40MPH or less.
100Mtrs & all other limts.
At every site the officer should check and make sure that the above is met. However.-- If the above is not met then there can be no mitigation of the charge. In other words, if the officer is a hazard unto himself and is negligent (of low intelligence) and cannot carry out straight forward requirements this has no bearing on the prosecution (persecution) of the driver.
It seems to me that no matter what or how they are operated that these guidelines are a complete and utter sham and a total waste of the DfT and ACPO requirements. The driver has to conform to regulations but those who are operating the finance generating system do not. The above requirements are also disregarded when covert operations are undertaken. The ACPO guidelines are 104 pages of garbage as nothing in it is complied with. If someone purchases an article and there are guidelines for its operation do they all disregard these instructions.(guidelines?) Guidelines are issued for compliance and should be operated as such. I am totally against those who instruct others on what to do while they themselves can do as they please to obtain their brownie points for themselves and Chief Constables with the prosecution figures. I'm all for safer roads but where are the RPUs, and where were they when we travelled on the motorway and observed racing again. Are RTCs more serious on these roads than in urban areas? I am totally stressed out with being told what I should do, and, how I should do it. As I have stated I do not exceed the NSL but I do object to all the BL&&dy cameras plastered around every road. I am considered to be the same as a criminal with all this garbage installed everywhere. If there was policing AS IT SHOULD BE then there would be no neeed for such equipment and we would once again become INDIVIDUALS. "A very alienated driver" and individual. PS. You made no comment on Chief Constables Coleman and Hughes and of course there are many others. Cameras can only detect speed so what do you suggest for detection of drugs,alcohol,insurance, MOT, tax, licence, and all other requirements. Of course they are not a "cost effective" proposition when compared to cameras and the reason so much emphasis is placed on them as a road safety tool. Do you consider speed more dangerous than any of those quoted above? With 2,000,000 uninsured drivers I think we have a problem somewhere in the system!!!

Steve... see if she can book a holiday or negotiate shift re-arrangement for just 2-3 days to cover sleep patterns. I am sure her bosses will agree that the SAC will be most beneficial to them as well as your Mama.


Mate.. she has my sympathies and I know from what you say - she ain't any ruddy danger to anyone. Look ... we may have had words .. but our chaps . cough . do use their noddles and brain cells. Oh.. by the way .. none of us in Co Durham
are real . cos none of us share Greenshed''s opinions by the way.


Sorry. it's very naughty of me to make these comments .. but my guv "triple dog dared" me as the would say if she'd heard the exchange

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Tut tut.. you are supposed to take them seriously.


Out of interest? Staffs or Lancs? or other? Suspect other as you could not sleep through Lancs or Staffs courses as they are COAST led and whilst one wonders at the method and calibre of the invitees (usually middle aged and law abidingly compliant on aggregate per reports and letters to press which praise the course but not the "snaring methods" per the genre of the style and tone of these letters to local press ) - I'd say the Lancs/Staffs Courses are decent and more in tune with an IMA observation than a "nose rubbed into an alleged offence". On aggregate "value for money" - you get more for your £85 from IAM all the same .. if the insurers grand a small discount. Shop around

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

How the muck can you take an ex policeman chanting "Speed Kills" with his fingers crossed behind his back, seriously? I can confidently say that I learned nothing from the classroom part of the course. Most of the attendees were, like me, mature careful drivers who had been caught out by unpublicised changes to speed limits on their usual journeys. It was quite obvious that the lecturer, as an ex trafic pol, had little regard for speed cameras as a road safety measure.

The driving part of the course was more useful, with some good tips on how to remain aware of the current speed limit at all times. And he kindly drove me to the Railway Station afterwards.



Derbyshire - Chesterfield.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

We find the practical side is where we do the most education (Both on DIS and SAC - we do have a SAC which is offered by the team in the van only. [size=50 Greenshed claims we "do not have one here in one response directed at me .. but then sucked his own by linking to the bit on our website which verifies that we do.. via the van only ... )[/size]


We find from the Swiss newshounds who ask questions around their localities that most cam prats offer the courses to drivers like you . and you verify what the Mad Cats kept saying over the past 5 years and what my old guv Garvin also thought.. (our current guv has similar opinions to Garvin overall .. but has tweeked the odd thing )



Ah.. they joined the SAC intiative. Was the cut off 35 mph? They vary.. from 35mph only in a 30 mph .. to 10%+2 to 6 across all speed ranges ..and our other argument is that the courses should be standard cut-off and offered to all in UK and not dependent on area in the interests of fair play and justice.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

As stated, a NIP may be the first someone receives and they are not aware of anything much that they can do. As I received one in 2004 I had no idea of what can and cannot be done. I had been in hospital over the previous months for bladder operations and then treatment as an out patient. This treatment causes one to require a toilet NOW and not when one can access a toilet. It is also very frequent and at ANY time. So being in my vehicle and suddenly finding I needed to relieve myself I travelled at 37 MPH and was zapped. Did I do the correct thing to try and get to a toilet or should I have got out the vehicle and used the side of the road? The point being that I did not contest the NIP but should have done. However. Would I have been considered as an exceptional case or not? Also when travelling on buses after such operations the pain is very bad but the Council do not consider anyone with such problems. (Here, I hope that they all suffer the same as I and others have and do). All one hears is speed, speed, but nothing in regard to drivers who operate, IPODS.MP3s, SAT/NAVs etc but mobile phones are a "no go". In correspondence with our Chief Constable he claims speed to be an element in many RTCs but when asked what the other 99 were he did not respond. There being 100% to a whole thing. I have corresponded with many forces over these past years on road safety and cameras and without doubt North Yorkshire has been the best with their response and gave factual and open answers to matters raised. By far the worst has been Lancashire (Preston) who didn't know their left from right and are controlled by civilians in the complaints department, what a shower they are. I would'nt trust them with a dog.
They remind of the following.-

A Government inspector visited a mental establishment and asked a doctor how they assessed a patient.
"Quite simple said" the doctor .
"We put the patient into a bath of water and give them a bucket,jug, and a tea cup".
"I see" said the inspector. You observe if the patient empties the bath with the bucket.
"No" said the doctor. "A normal person would pull the plug"
"Would you like a room with or without a view? OLLIE

I know it sounds a bit "glib" - but one solution if you have this problem might be the padded unisex pads/pants for such situations.


My mother-in-law uses these products as does the maiden aunt Jazz looks after. They work to a reasonable level of comfort per the old dears' verdicts


I DO understand your predicament - but you'd need a Nick Freeman type to argue that one really. One of ou chaps did have one case similar to one featured on "BBC Traffic Cops". He claimed his passenger needed the loo urgently when pulled at above 97 mph. Unlike the case on the telly prog - our officer established that the lady did indeed need a toilet. Fortunately for him - she was not pregnant - else he'd have to offer her his headgear He escorted to the services and gave the guy an FPN - which was quite OK under the circumstances as far as the driver and ourselves as enforecers were concerned. Guy had a lecture over COASt/journey planning and pulling into services for confort stops before things get "burstingly critical" I appreciate that your case is different all the same - and I hope to be practical and not "callously indifferent to you" when suggesting "certain products to cover such emergency"?



You'd need a decent lawyer.





I know. Public transport can be a dire experience. I do admit to enjoying using public transport abroad more though. Smoother driving . and better suspension.

(Unless you go up the mountain in the wooden bone shaker tram from Innsbuuck to Igls. ) We did it once. Blimey! :ikes:






N Yorks and Durham ..? Neither of us use fixed cams. We have mobile doo-dahs in the cars and the odd van. We have one. I understand N Yorks uses three vans as they cover a much larger area than us.


You would not get aways with speeding in either area by the way, We do prosecute more for careless/inconsiderate/dangerous than speeding on aggregate though. Both areas record the lowest and "most improved stats" each year too.

By all means do an FOI on Co Durham and N Yorks on this claim to verify my post here - and look at the nitty gritty on the website for the Office of National Statistics

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Then why does one have to send the fine and licence by recorded post as stated with the NIP???? It states.- Quote.- Proof of posting is not proof of receipt!!!! Whats good for the goose is good for the Gander is it not? Otherwise we have two sets of rules again!!!

I have to agree that this is where things can fall apart.

One of this family moved house. They advised DVLA of change and paid £20 plus a surcharge by post office to verify all proofs of identity

New licence never appears after 4 weeks.

They contacted DVLA., Were told it had been posted and should be received. Family member informed no reciept and expressed concerns of identiity theft . only to be told "out of hands when sent to mail room. Customer must take up tieh Royal Miale and they "cannot do registered/recorded/special due to volumes of mail


Humm . Passport office can and DO I know as they did one such for me recently OK . had to pay . but my replaced passpor t appeared within a week I see little difference with DVLA via Passport office to be blunt. :roil:

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

You seem to be blissfully unaware that these are two entirely different sets of guidelines. Courts use the Sentencing Guidelines produced by the Sentencing Guidelines Council and the Sentencing Advisory Panel. Courts are OBLIGED by law to have regard to the guidelines and MUST give reasons if they exercise their limited discretion to depart from the recommended sentence. The ACPO guidelines don't have the same force of law and, as far as I am aware, there is no requirement for police to comply or to explain if they don't comply.

Do you have any evidence to show that police officers are unable to follow the ACPO guidelines due to low intelligence? If so please share it with the rest of us as it raises all sorts of questions about policing in general. Or is the comment just an insult ?

You are willing to comment on individual cases presumably based ( as you haven't stated otherwise) on what you see in the media. I have enough experience of courts and of seeing cases I was personally involved with reported in the media, to know that it is common for the media to make factual errors. I have never seen a report which covered everything that was said in court.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

I can see many aspects on this subject but with regards to C/Cs complaining on drivers exceeding the limits and then doing the very same themselves is totally unacceptable. Lead by example, and what an example we have to follow. Hypercrits of the highest order. Coleman and driver 97MPH on the M1 but detected by a RPU. What idiots they were. Anyone who drives at such speeds and notices a vehicle is behind them at the same speed or gaining needs to be aware that this could be a RPU and lift ones right foot. Hughes, one time head of road policing and again castigating drivers yet travels at 90MPH in Wales of all places, this being his second offence. Both of the above had many bullets fired into them by me over their actions. DfT regulations.-Quote.- Must comply with STATUTORY requirements prescribed in TSRGD DfT circular 01/2007. The DfT quote Handbook of RULES & REQUIREMENTS but I take it that rules can be broken for prosecutions to takeplace as with the A6 Taddington Derbyshire. Dual carriageway 70 limit, mobile zapped a driver and served a NIP. However. This driver contested the charge and neither police or Council would admit that they had the incorrect signage for that road. What they didn't know was that he was an highways engineer and stood his ground. The charge was dropped and new sings errected. This is what I was saying about plod not knowing what is required for operation of camera sites. How many must have operated such equipment without having checked all was in order???? On requesting if all other drivers would receive refunds of fines and points removed they responded and, I leave you to conclude their answer. What a sample we have to contend with. I take it that rules are not used in such areas as road safety but if anyone else breaks any rule they are automatically prosecuted. I do not consider myself to be an expert but do have a police family background, have served twice in HM Forces so understand disipline. I also worked in transport maintenance for over 30 years and have been driving for over 50 years so have learnt a little over my life span. I find that the laws and justice systems to be well past their sell by date and is part of the reason that the Country as a whole is in such dire straits. I could never serve in the police under the present situation which exists. I could rant on all day but one cannot put right what others have done over these past years. OLLIE

We did not condone Hughes .. nor Brunstom's daughter (who was copped by Sun reported twice over the lolly signs whilst a probationer. Had she been my daughter - whatever I think of speed cams etc - I would have removed the privilege by not subsidising her car whilst a student etc )

I do not condone the antics of PC Milton either buy the way Our inspector lost his licence for 120 mph when testing out a test run for our "RPU fledgelings" It was plod business. He did not clear it with the host force for our "unseen practical test". Milton did not clear his "testing out of a frisky Vectra SRI". There was little difference in either action really :popcron:

We agree our Inspector should have cleared it before proceeding .. ut on aggregate we would argue that our chap was SAFER than Milton as

1. He was our chief trainer of a very efficient RPU at the time

2. He was on an almost empty motorway apart from 4 other cars at the time he accelerated .

3. He was not at 80 mph on a 30 mph with several other road users who would have been intimidated by his actions.


Of course it did not help that he was on the way to pick up another member of staff "whilst in the area" when the road occurred to him as "ideal for working out the litter of young bloods"




We do a full audit of each hot site here.

If you are charged with anything in Co Durham or N Yorks . you can be 100% certain it will be correct and to procedures

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

This does not make a wrong into a right. Durham has the lowest RTC record and was 11th overall in the police assessment, I do not know right now just how they have perfomed in recent times but no doubt they will be up in the top section where they belong. Cameras are no better than having a large family and when one breaks any house rules then all are considred to be the same and therefore suffer the same detention. No matter what is quoted on here there will never be a change from this present unacceptable system as, far too much finance is being generated for Government who have bankrupt the Country and have no cash,no intellegence,no vision, no calibre, no leadership, and above all no common sense. If this lot get in again the last one to leave this Country will not be able to switch off the light,they will have to blow out the candle. OLLIE

Oh .. we perform and keep it steady. We make improvements . but the league tables depend on "ticked box targets" and like the school league tables and the hospital league tables? You are none the wiser. The public still want to know if some one will catch the person who stole their possessions. etc.


Speaking as one from a large family .. I know what you mean there.. but that's :soap: chat stuff.

The other political lot say they will not have any more fixed cameras on the basis that there are enough already. We are hoping that a return to placing speed and all traffic enforcement back into RPU hands will prove once and for all that properly trained professionals who understand each driving situation are the only real delivers of fair safety out there. However, no one can guarantee absolute safety as we all know there are some seriously deranged dudes out there 24/7 who take no notice of a police uniform and certainly no notice of any speed camera - be it fixed/mobile or temporary in road works

They have not said they will do a "Swindon" nationwide ..but perhaps if Swindon proves it can deliver a safer road system without the fixed cams ... and mirrors N Yorks and Durham . then just maybe ????? I think that town will be watched like a hawk on this. They have an advantage over these areas North East who never subscribed to the scheme in normal SCP formal - in that they had a forest of live Gatsos and now they don't .. and their stats - past and near futures - have potential for proper peer reviewed research as result of their decision.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

So you are not from N/Yorks you are from Durham. Either force are better than the shower we have down here (I'm not saying the front line) but they will not comment on points raised, even the Council do not respond and I am considered to be "vexatious". This is to aleviate themselves from providing information under the FOI act and reflects that they have reason to believe that what is requested will reflect on their operations and actions etc when viewed by others. My reference to family was as drivers are all classed into the same catorgory and punished for the most minor of offences. There are good and bad in everything and everywhere so why are the good presecuted with the bad.? Answer.-" Because they cannot sort the wheat from the chaff" and its not a cost effective option to do so. Remember, this is an automated system of NIPs and any time or interuption will cause cost and manpower which is in very short supply. I do not cause anyone any harm and drive with experience of over 50 years but I am still classed as a potential RTC if travelling over the posted limit and need to be told that I'm a bad boy for doing so. I have been bad in years gone by but in later years become more mature and done my racing on "track days" at the correct place. I also taught both daughter and son to drive and both passed first time. I also feel at ease when they drive and consider that I taught them far better than any driving instructor, my daughter used to say,"Dad don't shout at me when I do something wrong" . My response being that if I shouted at her she would remember not to do it again and she didn't. But, who am I to spout, I have to be controlled like everyone else ,even like the bad ones.