Safe Speed Forums

No not me (although that must be a matter of time).

I've just got off the phone to my mum, she has just been caught out; it's her first time.
The road in question was a non-residential 40, now it is a 30; she was caught doing 36 by a mobile. She isn't particularly happy about it; I think we have another convert

She's not exactly the speedie type person, in fact it took her several years of driving before she was brave enough to use the motorway

The offence was over a week ago, so needless to say she cannot remember what speed she was actually doing - that's our effective justice system for you!

She knows of my abilities and knowledge in this field; needless to say I'll be carefully scrutinising the documents

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Sorry to hear about this. Hope your mum's not too upset. She may get offered a Speed Aware? Is she in an area which does not cut off at 35 mph..for these That's seems to be the other problem., there does not seem to be a uniform criteria on these whereas they all (ncluding this area by and large) apply 10% +2 per guidleines ( well most of the time.. )

Find out when the speed limit changed.. check all the signs carefully. Find out if any other locals have been caught out from "local habits dying hard" and spread word of mouth to warn all about the limit change.. especially if returning to the area after a break.

Check the documents and chalk to experience and tell her about my COAST!

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Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

A small bit of information (not advice) for what its worth.
Some while ago a friends wife received a NIP for speeding in South Yorkshire (Sheffield, the home of C/Constable Hughes, the 90MPH head of road safety at one time with two convictions for speeding) he asked what she should do. My reply was to forget it and bin it which they did. Some while later they received another NIP and again asked what they should do. I again told them to bin it. The reason being that with all NIPs you are told that froof of posting is not proof of receipt and to send all money and documentation by REGISTERED post. After the first NIP the police should have sent the second by recorded delivery but they did!nt. The problem for them is that all these operations are automated and all mail is franked (stamped) at their offices. To send a recorded delivery they would have to have someone take the documents to a post office to have it recorded. This breaks the automatic part of their operations and costs them manpower and time to do this. My friends wife did not hear from them again. The other alternative they have is to send an officer to the address but that would have meant contacting the Nottingham force to do this and all forces do not have the manpower to carry this out as its time consuming. The point here is that they have no proof that you received the NIP and they have no signature to say that you did in fact receive it. Remember PROOF OF POSTING IS NOT PROOF OF RECEIPT unless signed for. Also don!t be bullied into anything and stand your ground.
I recently had a NIP from the Lancashire Police due to my old vehicle (disposed of 18 months previous) having exceeded a speed limit and I was to forward the drivers name. I had exchanged it at a dealers and I wrote and told them so but I also fired many bullets into them and the C/ Constable. I made a complaint as to how they had handled the situation and in the end I think they were pleased that I had!nt contacted the IPCC with my complaint. The last letter from them had my PRESENT car mentioned as that in the original NIP. What a bloody shower they are in Lancashire.Hope this gives you some info but like I say its not advice. You can only do what you think is best at the time. Ollie

Top quality lurking there, fella!

Just a few words of advice for anybody thinking of following the advice given by Ollie. It is true that a number of cases do fall through the cracks and are not proceeded with, but the vast majority do go ahead. We see an awful lot of these and they go like this.

The case is referred to court if there is no reply to the NIP and an automatic not guilty plea is entered on behalf of the defendant. A short trial will then take place at which the CPS will state that the NIP was posted to the address on the V5 and that there has been no reply. They will also give details of the offence - when, where, how fast, type of vehicle, how the speed was recorded and if there are any points on the licence held by the registered keeper of the vehicle. If the court are satisfied that enough time has elapsed for the defendant to reply and that the elements of the offence are made out they will arrive at a guilty verdict and proceed to sentence in absence. The sentence will be based on a not guilty plea, so no discount off sentence as would be the case with a guilty plea. The fine will be based on average income of £350 per week plus costs for a trial.

Some people pay up but the majority come to court to get the decision overturned. Thats where they can run into very big problems. They (usually) need to make a statutory declaration that they did not receive the NIP. At which point the whole thing starts again. So they either need to admit they did get the NIP and risk jail for a false statutory declaration or they maintain they didn't get it and risk being caught out on cross examination when it goes to trial. If that happens they get charged with attempting to pervert the course of justice. Thats usually the point at which they produce a screen print from their favourite "don't get convicted for speeding website" showing advice very similar to that put forward by ollie. And get a bigger sentence as it is clear evidence of planning the offence of attempting to pervert the course of justice. The sentence will be one of custody, plus whatever is thought appropriate for the original speeding offence.


The people who post this kind of story (presumably) don't care how much hassle it causes people who genuinely don't receive a NIP. It used to be possible to believe people when they said the NIP hadn't arrived and cases were dropped. Now they all go to trial with resultant unnecessary worry for innocent people.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

All of which could be avoided if the prosecuting authorities spent another pound sending the NIPs by signed for post. In my professional; life all important documents - and none are so important that a man's liberty depends on it - are sent by recorded delivery.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Indeed... but recorded go by normal post as does registerred.

The only thing it tell you ist whether it has been delivered from looking up its "tracking on the royal mail web page" You still not sure if the target receive though,...

Because of the amount of cash they make .. und want, I am sure they can afford to send boat out und go the whole hog und send it by special delivery.. That way you know it has been delivered und the recipient should also return correspondence in same fashion so how he or she accept the charges levied.


Note.. no one advocate illegal behaviour - but encourage ensuring fair play here und right to challenge und refute allegation.

.

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!

So, it is possible in the U.K. to be convicted in your absence of an offence which you are not aware that you have committed. If there has been an address error or some other problem, you will also not be aware of this conviction and the fine as communication will be only by post.

I'm not sure what I think of this. Administrative justice?

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

I suppose whether you are aware of having committed an offence or not depends on the individual and the offence. I never tire of hearing that a defendant thought he was doing 70 and was horrified to find that he had been caught at 120.
People certainly can be found guilty without knowing of the proceedings. Sometimes because they followed dubious advice to throw away a NIP. More often because they haven't complied with their obligations under the law to notify a change of address. Anybody who genuinely doesn't receive a NIP, and later finds that they have been convicted in absence, can get the proceedings overturned and the sentence cancelled and removed from their record very easily and at no cost other than getting to court. They can then plead not guilty and give evidence at trial to state that they didn't get the NIP.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

As I stated it was not advice I gave but it does reflect whats wrong with NIPs and the whole Bl---dy system. My father served 34 years on the force and I always respected authority also having served twice in HM Forces but the present situation only alientates drivers and some of the public. When one can be served a NIP and be considered guilty no matter what the situation and have to carry out the authorities administration for them its time to end this farce of so called road safety with cameras. If the roads were policed as they should be then I believe that serious RTCs would be reduced. The RPUs of all forces have been reduced over the years, Derbyshire having just reduced theirs again by another 10 officers so road safety is not a priority and any serious RTC is therefore in part due to their ineffective policing of the roads. (So they have no cause to complain when these RTCs do happen).
My own thoughts on any NIP that I may receive is that I shall ignore it and they will have to drag me to court where they will fine me and put points on my licence,but, I shall not pay any fine and will opt to serve time at one of the holiday camps that serve as detention centres. At my time of life what have I got to lose. I have already been alientated by their useless strategies and thoughts on road safety and after 50 years of driving and 30 years in HGV maintenance I consider that I have a little knowledge of the requirementsfor safer roads. (I see it every day)
Just a little for Fisherman. On a trip to OZ (6 weeks) I was issued with a NIP on our return to the UK I emailed them andstated that I did!nt know who was driving (3on the hire form) they put it in the hands of the State debt recovery department and it had accumalated in cost. However. I told them a few facts on cameras etc and never heard form them afterwards. The point is. We were away for 6 weeks so if any UK NIP had been posted to me in that time how can one respond? Another point is that I spend sometimes 4 weeks away at a relations, again how would I respond if there had been any NIP posted to my home address? Would anyone accept my relations evidence? I doubt this very much as the system that is operated is no better than "BIG BROTHER" and it gets worse by the week. Who would be in the police these days? Certainly not me

On the subject of speed and cameras, what I do not agree with is if travelling above the limit by any small amount one is prosecuted and yet whom did they harm? Do they injury anyone? They claim that YOU MAY injure someone. Cameras and the system place everyone into a catergory of incompentence and low level of intelligence which puts F1 drivers into the same as someone with a very low mentallity and where the system is totally incorrect for the results required. OLLIE

Then why post this?






Not true. Naming yourself or anybody else as the driver is not an admission of guilt.

If you state on oath that you did not receive a NIP and they catch you out on cross examination it will indeed be jail. If you refuse to pay a fine it will be an attachment of earnings or benefits to get the money before you do. If you have no income it will be court bailiffs who collect the cash. They can clamp your car or, with a warrant, enter your home and remove goods for sale at auction.


Which is almost certainly why it was dropped as it was not in the public interest to proceed under the circumstances.


My replies are not in any way intended to persuade you to change your attitude as I have no problem whatsoever with you tearing up NIPs and pretending they haven't arrived. I have replied so that anybody who reads your guidance and is tempted to follow it can see the possible consequences and make a decision based on both sides of the story.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.

Just one small point re registered mail for sending NIPs. There is no reason why they couldn't charge you for the registered mail that I know of which could be added to the fine if found guilty etc. OK so it won't guarantee the persons name on the NIP is the one who received it but it would add weight to the court that you more than likely did, more so that just sending it by normal snail mail IMO. Unless you no different to the above of course. The only other problem I see is if nobody is at home to receive and sign for it which would mean a trip to the PO to retrieve and sign for it.

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Flash.
(Everybody is entitled to my opinion)

The system is fully loaded against the defendent and you should know yourself that mobile and hand held cameras have been shown to be inaccurate in many situations. Even a stationary vehicle can be made to be moving if used incorrectly. Many are being operated by civvies these days due to manpower shortages in all police forces and now also old civvies
are being issued with speed guns. This shows just what a dire situation all forces are in and to what lengths they will go to bring about an acceptable profile to the public. We are supposed to have a democracy in the UK but when C/Constables exceed speed limts by large amounts and receive lower sentences than the public we are heading into the pits. I want safer roads and the only way of achieving this is by road policing as it should be. I would welcome your comments on Mr Hughes and Mr Coleman to name but two of the hypercrits which were and still are in the system. Both lambasted the public for exceeding speed limits but what were their records???? Hughes resigned as head of the road safety policing unit, Coleman retiring soon after his case. What a sample we have to look up too. And these are the people that castigate the public for minor driving offences. What are your views my man ??

ollie .. not all of us are of the ilk of Pc Milton.

I personally would not dream of "reneging on my responsibiities"

Oh yes., when on duty ., or on police business which warrants "exemption" - we have this right. but we also must abide by a duty of care to all others and not place in untoward danger - else we be prosecuted

I do not at all support comments as made on a different site. by so-called police, The reality is that we have an exemption from "normal law" if on urgent business or an agreed and mapped out training programme which has to take public into account as the HSE norm.

The reality is that we plod "are not a law unto ourselves and can ourselves be prosecuted if we cause alleged and then proven harm to another even if on "plod business" I think only right., and let an objecitve court in black/white law decide .. in balanced judgement

My sympathies are with Steve's Mum. I would ask her to chalk to experience.. chill out. read my COAST posts.. learn and move on. Her 3 pointer should not adversely load her insurance. I would urge her to look at timetables of the vans.. listen to local radio.. BUT above all that .. learn to COAST again carefully and to treat this as a wake up call to COAST.


I do understand her, I understand her anger.. her fears.. her resentment.. If she;s been stopped by plod . she'd still be miffed .. but would be better able perhaps to learn a lesson?


I have told Steve via pm to tell his Mam not to kick herself down over this .. it does not mean "bad driver".. but to learn and chalk to experience ...and think COAST

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

The clash of what once was a predictable road 'posted speed limit' and the new lower limit for often no obvious clear reason makes experienced drivers such as your mum, highly likely to make errors unless they can see the new / updated signs, and adjust to the new reduced limit. I think they should add a temporary 'NEW Reduced Limit' sign, to help those familiar with the road to become more quickly aware of the change.
It is very common to look but not see, and many locals may not realise that the limit has changed, and this is morally incorrect, never mind, that people are likely to be driving safely.
The new potential hazard' of vans etc., possibly threatening and/or wrecking people's lives is very hard lesson to learn in this way, but this is how the modern driver has to deal with cameras littering our roads. Sadly and of course this crucially takes attention away from the genuine hazards and many experienced drivers then feel that they are driving blind, as they have to take their attention away from the road ahead, and look at static vehicles, post, overhead gantries etc., etc ...

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

If they used the "changed speed limit" sign then the public would realise just how many speed limits were changing.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

Precisely.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Suprise,suprise. If your title of magistrate is correct or you have any connection with authority then no wonder the country is in such a state. You claim that I gave advice and this is incorrect. I gave INFORMATION which is entirely different and no doubt why this Country is such a Bloody state with regards to fines and prosecutions and justice. Read the statements correctly. OLLIE

It is the laws that are outdated and not those who enforce them. How many have been updated over this past decade? In regard to motoring one could drive at these limits in an old Morris 1,000. Poor brakes,poor suspension and steering,tyres that were useless. Compare that to todays vehicles and they almost drive themselves with superior build all round and safety features never heard of 20 years ago. The result of all this? We have lower speed limits everywhere and all are considered to be potential RTCs. As the saying goes.- "We are lions led by donkeys".OLLIE