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 Post subject: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 15:53 
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I was stopped yesterday by Police and one of my tyres was below the legal limit. I told the officers I had 9 points and as the others were brand new, could i just go and get a new tyre (I did afterwards anyway of course). They didnt show leniancy and I believe I will receive a court summons in the new year. I have read some excellent advice on this forum already about representing yourself and pros/cons of instructing a solicitor. I guess I am just looking for more sage words from the good people of this forum. If and when (probably when) the NIP arrives, what should i expect as a likely outcome? I currently have a door to door collection and shopping voucher round. It is my main (practically only) source of income. I cannot physically or officially do the job without a vehicle (and therefore licence). The vehicle is used to take my partner to and from her work every day and also we share the household bills from our joint incomes, so loss of my job would directly effect her too. The other 9 points were gathered from 3 times 3 point speeding offences in Aug 2008, Aug 2009 and May 2010. I have no doubt the summons will come before August 2011 so the totting up of points will apply. In fact there were three officers that stopped me and the lady who wrote out the paperwork, i got the impression, was a trainee. I think if it had just been the two older policemen who had stopped me, they might well have let me go replace the faulty tyre with a slap on the wrists, but she seemed to need the practice of filling out the paperwork. This also makes me think she might complete her summons paperwork quicker due to new recruit eagerness.

I guess i really want to know what are my chances of a successful hardship submission? Should i represent myself? What paperwork can i prepare for the bench beforehand? What is the procedure of letting the court know of my intention to submit a hardship submission? (is it on the day?)

Also a solicitor I have consulted said there is increasingly good results in contacting the police directly before they summons to put forward a hardship case and hopefully they will let you off with a caution. Is this false hope from a solicitor trying to get more money from me? Also would it just serve to prompt the officer to complete the summons paperwork quicker? And who would i address such a letter to anyway?

Cheers

James


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Thu Dec 16, 2010 21:34 
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:welcome: evs50
Please note that I am not a lawyer and therefore cannot advise you.
Do try pepipoo for some legal assistance.

IMHO :
I assume that the Police didn't give you a FPN (Fixed Penalty Notice) on the spot as it will need to be a magistrates / judge's decision in a Court as to if you will receive a ban or not. There does seem to be an increase in people, receiving more points and not receive a ban but it will be entirely down to your representation of the facts and circumstances ...

Are you convinced that the tyre was bald? (must have a continuous band of 1.6mm min over a min of 3/4 of the central band of the tyre. See here which states that :
DVLA wrote:
[Laws RTA 1988 sect 42 & CUR reg 32]

Tyres. Tyres MUST be correctly inflated to the vehicle manufacturer’s specification for the load being carried. Always refer to the vehicle’s handbook or data. Tyres should also be free from certain cuts and other defects.

Cars, light vans and light trailers MUST have a tread depth of at least 1.6 mm across the central three-quarters of the breadth of the tread and around the entire circumference.

Motorcycles, large vehicles and passenger-carrying vehicles MUST have a tread depth of at least 1 mm across three-quarters of the breadth of the tread and in a continuous band around the entire circumference.
Mopeds should have visible tread.
Be aware that some vehicle defects can attract penalty points.

[url="http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTransport/Highwaycode/DG_069870"]Penalty Point and Disqualifications
'Totting-up' penalty points

If you build up 12 or more penalty points within a period of three years, you’ll be liable to be disqualified under the 'totting-up' system. This is shown on your licence as TT99.

Information on your driving entitlement and endorsements are sent to the courts and police on request.

... and Here :
Short period disqualification (SPD)

If you’re disqualified for less than 56 days, the court will stamp your paper driving licence or counterpart document and give it back to you. The stamp shows the disqualification period and you don’t need to renew your licence. The licence becomes valid and you can return to driving after the disqualification ends.

Disqualification periods of 56 days or more
If you’re disqualified for 56 days or more you’ll need to apply to renew your driving licence before you can return to driving. * Getting your driving licence back after disqualification

Disqualification under the ‘totting-up’ system
If you build up 12 or more penalty points within a period of three years, you’ll be liable to be disqualified under the 'totting-up' system.
Generally, you can be disqualified from driving for:
* six months if you get 12 penalty points or more within three years
* 12 months if you get a second disqualification within three years
* two years if you get a third disqualification[/url] :
)

Yes the points will count as they will be marked from the date of offence, not when you receive any NIP.

There are legal bodies to assist if you cannot afford a lawyer in principal it is best to approach various solicitors and the Court Clark and see what is being offered to you.
Explaining your situation to the local force / CPS may help prevent a Court case but take legal advice on this as you need to be sensible about what you state.
"Legal Aid" and if necessary the "Bar Pro Bono" Unit ... both need applications and take time to process.
This is interesting but I cannot vouch for the legality of it, here.
HTH. :)

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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Sat Dec 18, 2010 17:25 
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evs50 wrote:
I guess i really want to know what are my chances of a successful hardship submission? Should i represent myself? What paperwork can i prepare for the bench beforehand? What is the procedure of letting the court know of my intention to submit a hardship submission? (is it on the day?)
The punishment is supposed to cause hardship but not exceptional hardship. There is no set definition of exceptional so it is not possible to to say if a specific application will succeed. You can easily represent yourself, the court clerk and the chairman will make sure you are not disadvantaged by lack of knowledge of procedure. If you are not confident of your ability to speak in public then write it all down in advance and hand that to the clerk when your name is called. You do not need to say in advance that you intend to make an exceptional hardship submission. The court will ask you if you have anything to say and you just set out what the affects of a ban will be on you and your family and the people (if any) who rely on you for transport. Get supporting letters form the people involved. Just simple explanations of how they will be affected and why there is no alternative for them. be aware that courts have the power to check up on this sort of thing and telling lies to strengthen your case would see you and anybody else involved in jail.



evs50 wrote:
Also a solicitor I have consulted said there is increasingly good results in contacting the police directly before they summons to put forward a hardship case and hopefully they will let you off with a caution.
I have no idea if this works or not as I only deal with the cases that get to court.

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I am not a lawyer and can't give legal advice. I do have experience of the day to day working of courts and use that knowledge to help where possible. I do not represent any official body and post as an individual.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 14:22 
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Hello again.

My Summons has arrived. It says I have 3 options: 1. Plead guilty by post. 2. Plead guilty at court. 3. Plead not Guilty.

I presume I want to plead guilty at the court (option 2) and then put forward my case for them to show leniency. There is a statment of financial circumstances and a mitigating circumstances form. These forms are unclear and I have contacted the court on the phone number provided for any queries, to clarify a few issues and the person on the other end replied "I dont know". She also told me if I want the court to consider my circumstances then I just need to turn up and dont need to send anything in advance. Due to her unceratainty on other matters, I was wondering if anyone here can help me procedure wise.

So far I am thinking (re: prep for court) of obtaining and taking with me the following:

-Copies of bills
-A letter from my partner stating that the bills are shared and she would no longer be able to continue living in the current address without my pay. Also confirming that I drive her to and from work every day.
-My partners payslip
-A letter from my manager at home lending company job to explain I require to drive in order to keep my job
-A weekly payment statement for that job
-A financial statement of circumstances
-My drivers licence
-An explanation of why I would like them to look leniently on my case, as to the hardship it would cause.

What else will i need to take?

Great advice so far, please help me again.

Cheers

James


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 14:44 
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You say the other three tyres were new - do I take it that this was simply an oversight due to the bad weather we were experiencing last December?

In my experience not many people take good care of three tyres and miss the other one unless it was borderline and unexpected.
Spinning the wheels on thin snow is a quick way to lose tread before you get around to checking it.

You might want to point out in court the circumstances which lead to the oversight!

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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 15:23 
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The other one had been borderline. I had an MOT 8 weeks previous. I take it to a garage (a relative) who do a pre-mot on it, fix anything that needs doing and then take it for the test. He called and said that it needed 3 tyres and the other one will need changing in time but no need now (that was on the advice of a well respected local tyre firm). I do average milage i suppose and dont screw my car. To be honest the tyre looked ok to me, but I am no expert and if the Police say it was under, I accept that. It was an oversight, but not sure that is a defence. But that is the reason for the 3 tyres new and one just under.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 17:41 
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Quote:
To be honest the tyre looked ok to me, but I am no expert and if the Police say it was under, I accept that. It


Did he measure it with a tyre guage at the time of being stopped or did anyone measure it afterwards? I would have thought that the guesswork of a police officer (unless it was obviously bald) wouldn't stand up in court without proper measurement, to see if the tread was 1.6mm or above, over 3/4 of the width and for the full circumference.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 17:47 
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The police did measure the tyre yes, they said it was under. I am not really looking to dispute the claim, whether i think it was over-zealous or not. I am really looking for advice about pleading excessive hardship of a ban.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 21:34 
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Location: Somewhere between a rock and a hard place
This is how the world works today. Well, in the UK...

Analogy #1
1.59mm tread depth = 3 points and a heavy fine which could mean a ban, loss of job, loss of income, no home, and f :censored: k-all chance of getting re-employed in an ever-diminishing employment market, especially for the edler generation..

Analogy #2
79mg of alcohol per 100ml = On your way sir/madam you naughty person you.
80+ mg of alcohol per 100ml = Drunk! Pissed! Three sheets to the wind! MURDERER! Child-killer!!! BANNED FOR A YEAR - MINIMUM! (Happy to take questions on that later..).

Analogy #3
It's a :20: limit outside a school because it's a school and children use schools - right?
So I'm going down that road one day/night doing 30mph... Can you guess the rest?

Don't you just love limits and the way they are enFORCED? :roll:

Others, who have an ounce of integrity, will admit ‘it’s not perfect, but it’s the best we can do’.

Okay, I understand that but..

I personally find it strange that we got man on the moon in 69, which I vividly remember, and we have all this modern technology here in 2011 yet we still can’t design and make a steel tea pot at a motorway stop which doesn’t spill all over the f :censored: 'n place on the tray instead of in my cup and so many can’t understand the simple concept of dumb limits and even dumber enforcement where safety is not an issue. Oh well...

:welcome: evs50

Your name is Eric Van Shindler and you were born in 1950? :D Warm? :P

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 23:14 
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ok


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Thu Mar 10, 2011 23:30 
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Hey, Tone, I think you need a new caption comp to stretch your mind...lol

One coming soon... :lol:

_________________
My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 00:29 
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evs50 wrote:
... I had an MOT 8 weeks previous. I take it to a garage (a relative) who do a pre-mot on it, fix anything that needs doing and then take it for the test. He called and said that it needed 3 tyres and the other one will need changing in time but no need now (that was on the advice of a well respected local tyre firm)..... but I am no expert and if the Police say it was under, ....
OK two points. Definitely get the tyre chap to state what he told you and on what date and have him sign it and take that to Court with you (this is just my opinion - I am not legally qualified in any way to advise you in that capacity), as this helps to show the Court that you have been acting reasonably and concerned over this previous to being stopped.
Secondly do you still have the tyre. Whilst you may not wish to dispute the Police claim exactly, and I am honestly not sure that you shouldn't (they do get things wrong sometimes), showing exactly how the tyre 'is' and so soon after replacing it from the police stop, (by receipt for the new tyre), it might show that it is not 3/4 all around the centre section of the entire tyre. The tread depth indicators (the small rubber 'fill-in's' here and there that break up the otherwise tread pattern will help to show you too, but a depth gage tester (simple metal spike (ish) one will help you to ensure if it is too, and in the future too. They must be 'operated' carefully by getting the small round end at the deepest part, it can be easy to land on a higher tyre tread bit .... and then doing so too quickly can lead to a wrong assessment.

I think you have a good comprehensive list there.
Take your MOT of course too - to help verify the tyre chaps story. As another point I would neither hide nor promote unless asked that the tyre chap is a relative, if he has the same name they might well ask of course.
Since the lady in the Court suggested not doing anything, I would as a minimum write to the Court to let them know.
I agree that the number 2 option sounds right from the list that you gave but try and call the Court again, or if nearby go and see them and try and ask for and see the Court Clerk, they absolutely will know (they help to advise the Magistrates).
Needless to say when you go, try and get your partner there too if possible, and dress decently. Always address the Bench as Sir, M'am unless otherwise instructed. You can ask them too.

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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 09:29 
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was there anything on the MOT documentation advising that the tyre was near the end of its life


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 11:39 
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Yes i believe there was a comment about the tyre on the paperwork. It said that the tyre would need to be changed soon. I was aware of it and was going to change it after christmas. Obviously just wish I had said "stick 4 on it" before the MOT now, but that is hindsight for you.

I am a named driver on my mum's mobility car too, do you think this is worth mentioning in a hardship case? She can drive, but sometimes she can hardly get out of bed so i get shopping for her and call in to put her bins out etc. Without a car I wouldnt be able to just pop in when she wants something. Also would not be able to rush there at short notice if she was taken ill. She drives herself to the supermarket every so often and the 5 minute drive to our house for dinner, but she doesn't do long distance anymore. In fact, one lot of the 3 points i received for speeding was taking her to a food fayre in mid wales, in her car, on roads that were poorly signed and unfamiliar to me. I am an only child too and my father passed away in 2000 so I am her only member of immediate family (she is an only child too, no siblings).


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Fri Mar 11, 2011 18:00 
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There is no use in crying over spilt milk,but i suppose the lesson hopefully you will have learnt to date is the fact that when you rack up so many points for whatever reason, you have to take stock of what is happening as now you are having to work and sweat a bit harder than if you would have been more responsible,bollocking over

Now, what you have to do is as every body else has said try and limit the damage so to speak,for my money you have to plead guilty,with mitigation to try and avoid a ban,not not guilty as you seem to agree that your tyre was below the legal limit,we need to get this straight and start fighting in one direction or the other you cant go to court and fight both.

Police Prosecution (hopefully)
1.They will have recorded all the tyre details along with serial numbers etc
2.Taken photos of the tyre showing its condition.
Defence/Mitigation
1.Photograph the tyres that have been replaced to show care
2.Take reciepts for replacement tyres
3.Take advisory form issued with MOT (hopefully) a decent garage uses a gauge to show actual depth of tread rather than eye
4.Take your hardship statement with you.

Do not try and play to much on the fact that it was only eight weeks since advice/change as 8 weeks is a long time if your tracking is out and you did or did not know that might have been discussed at MOT with tester,i know if you played that one then If I was prosecutor you would load me with a lot of ammunition to fire back,also by photographing the new tyres might show any wear even at this stage I dont know.

If you come across well in court I don see any reason why you will be disqualified as there are lots of people who are on maximum + points and are still driving but dont start quoting anything like that in court (sure you wont) .

I dont know the full Circumstances of what went on between you and the police and neither does anyone else,so wont comment as in my experience whatever is told there is two sides to the story,and if it was me there must have been a good reason why you firstly werent offered if available a Vehicle Defect Rectification Scheme notice I would hazard a guess that the tyre was so bad that it might have looked neglected i don't know.

The problem with posting on forums such as this and asking for an opinion or advice based on a one sided story there will always be a biased reply,that is why I will only give advice on certain subjects which is reasonable and plausable such as this,so good luck and let us know how you go on.
Stephen


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Sat Mar 12, 2011 14:01 
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Thanks for the advice. The tyre was around 1mm according to the officer, so I dont know if that is considered serious neglect or not, but that was the reading. The other 4 tyres were new 8 weeks previous and the officer mentioned that. I told them I had an MOT and replaced 3 of them as other one seemed ok. This part of the conversation is sadly not in the police statement. Should I bring this up or will it sound like hearsay?


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Mon Mar 14, 2011 00:00 
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It does seem a bit odd to go to the expense of replacing 3 and not the 4th tyre. Did you rack up a lot of driving to wear down the .6 mm to make it fully illegal. If there is a financial hardship case then taking that into into Court may help show them that you are trying to do your best under perhaps difficult circumstances.
I am curious as to why you didn't get the 4th done as typically tyre places always err on the side of extreme caution, and advise a change when one isn't necessary in my experience. (I appreciate the relative reference too). Plus I do find it odd to put on a single brand new tyre on one side only, and be happy to have a pretty worn one on the other - that is not good for safety at all. For the future - a part worn one or even a cheap brand one for a month or two until you can afford better one is a good idea. Is there a story behind this reason ? (You are of course, not obliged to tell us !) :)
So then yes, your advisory will show the tyre wear issue plus your tyre place and mention it too ... so that will help the Court appreciate that 8wks ago it was legal, but it leaves the question what happened to it so that in just 8 wks the tread is now below legal ... seems odd.
Is this why you are thinking about tracking issues adding on the extra wear?

Did they take photos at the scene as your earlier description led me to believe that you went and changed it straight away - what did happened to the tyre - who has it now ?

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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Fri Mar 18, 2011 12:03 
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I dont know if the police took photos or not.

I went straight away to change the tyre obviously, but that was back in December so I dont know where the tyre is.

My cousin called me from the tyre place and said that it needed 3 new ones according to them. He also told me that I would need some other stuff done and just wanted my go ahead on it, I said yeh go for it. The car went through the mot and 8 weeks of average milage later, my drivers side rear tyre was below limit, so I find myself here. I thought it would be ok until after christmas, but apparently not. I know I am repeating myself, but the tyre didnt look too bad to my untrained eye. Main thing is though, I want to keep my licence now through an excessive hardship case.


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 Post subject: Re: 12 points possibly
PostPosted: Mon Mar 21, 2011 02:45 
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I think ensuring that you buy a tyre gage and understand how to use it and check the tyres regularly is a must. :)

The tyre ought to have been kept. I wonder if there was a thread break that may have caused the potential excessive wear ? Do you recall or your tyre chap, where the wear was ?
You can ask what evidence the prosecution has and maybe worth doing.
Going in fully prepared is far better. That way you know what they will bring up in Court. That helps you to be more effective and respond appropriately and effectively for the Court too thus saving time and money.

Go in with all previously discussed material. Ensure that you have your statement written down and that you know it well so that you can be clear to the Court.

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