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 Post subject: Prosecution pending
PostPosted: Mon Feb 21, 2011 18:05 
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Hello to everyone on this forum, i hope you can give some feedback on my problem.

Some months ago i was sent a NIP form to my home. I am not the owner of the car that is referred to as going through a mobile camera at 37 mph in a 30 zone. This car is my ex partners who when received their NIP named me as the possible driver. I later learned this was done under the duress of being forced into naming a driver as she cannot remember being on said road.

We were split up shortly before this NIP states the offence happened and i was puzzled as to why it was being put on me. I did not have a clue as to who was driving the car and did ask for a picture so i may possibly identify the driver. The picture only showed the back of the car so that was a waste of time.

I never filled in my NIP but wrote a letter saying i cannot recall driving this car and explained the form only seems to allow me to admit my guilt.

I received a summons with two charges, 1 speeding offence, 2 failing to provide details of driver as required. I have pleaded not guilty to both and i now have a date for trial. I have had no contact with my ex since before this speeding offence occured. However through a third party i have just learned her assumption i was driving is based on the fact i might have had a spare key to the car (which i never did have)

The court are not aware as yet of any of the circumstances but it worries me that i may be found guilty of this.


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 Post subject: Re: Prosecution pending
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 04:27 
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:welcome: Bellman

I would advise that you seek proper legal advice, I am not a lawyer and cannot advise you.
See pepipoo and it's forums where various legally qualified people may be found.

From my limited experience this sounds like a very tricky and most unfortunate position for you and I am sorry to hear it. I assume from your post that you were absolutely not driving the car.
It brings up (again) many points about the whole 'fairness' or lack thereof of the whole system.

First, what details are there on the docs, was this a static gastso type camera or from an LTI (Cameravan) - ask if you are not sure. More evidence maybe available to you to view - like the second photo or video evidence. Often you have to insist before they provide it.

You need to establish that on the day on question, where were you, might you have been with anyone else that can verify your whereabouts, might a phone bill (mobile or landline) show that you were on the phone and who with ? Mobile phones can be traced to show the local cell that functioned, but I am not 100% certain if this at all traceable after the event, ask your provider. I know it to be true during a 999 call however.

If you cannot prove an alternative location for yourself at that very moment in time can you show anything either side of that time frame to show that perhaps your known location makes it impossible to be elsewhere. ... and so on...
Usually a rear facing photo can show the height of a person driving - although not conclusive perhaps for a Court you maybe able to debate this point with the ex and so - e.g. not you etc.
Most cars do have 2 sets of keys, so where is the 2nd set ? Do you still have any involvement with the car in any way at all. Even told the garage to no longer send you the bills ?
I would have thought that a letter stating that you have parted company, you have nothing more to do with her, or her car (unless it is still yours in any way), you may need to keep saying this too, but I am somewhat concerned that they are now planning to take you to trial - on what basis ? The fact that she has named you means that you now are left proving that she holds a 'grudge' perhaps etc. and you face the Court? I don't suppose you know where the ex was on that day?

I would take legal advice on this because it is not in the best community interest to take a person to Court who was not driving. Can you show that you have no insurance for it ? Anything to help your case that you have cut the ties with her and so the car ? If you can show any of this attach it to the letter. Never state anything that you don't want the Court to be aware of.
You have 28 days to respond to their form so at this stage I'd send the letter / attachments and wait for a week and if nothing arrives then I'd call them. But I would start by contacting a lawyer before doing anything, and see if they might send a letter as this will carry more 'weight' to your message, plus if this gets nasty then a Lawyer has been involved from the start.
I cannot see that they can really prosecute you for failing to provide details, as this is the first that you have heard about it too. It might be that a Court will have to decide however. I am unclear how the 'ex' has been believed over you at this point.

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 Post subject: Re: Prosecution pending
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 17:30 
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Hi, thanks for taking the time with your input as its much appreciated.

The picture is of the rear off the car im not sure what type of camera it was. There is an atachment saying "the photograph intended to identify the vehicle rather than the driver and, as such should the photograph not show the driver this does not excuse your duty to provide the necessary information" This is the photograph that i requested by post as i was in the hope that i can identify the driver myself but cannot.

I cannot remember what i was doing on that day. My ex is absolutely terrible with her memory of roads for the following reason i think it was her driving. I have now had contact with a member of her family (i cannot contact my ex) who states that ex says she may have made a mistake naming me as the driver and she has found the spare key that she thought i had. I am a named driver on her policy and presume this has not been removed.

Another point worth mentioning is that i have never been on the road where the offence took place yet my ex has reason to be in that area. My hope is that the ex will realise either her or someone else was driving the car and clear this up before the hearing. Can the magistrate make her come to court? as this may have to be the case.

I cannot afford a solicitor im afraid but this case could get damn complicated with a lot of dirt dragged up because of the situation. I find it strange that i can be named as a driver and the courts feel thats good enough to bring me to court. I have a clean driving licence and am middle aged, i dont feel i live in the real world at the moment lol.


Thanks again.


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 Post subject: Re: Prosecution pending
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 18:28 
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Personally I would think that it's a case of appearing in court and staing..."It's not my car, I don't have a key and haven't driven it since such and such a date and don't have a clue who was driving on that day but it wasn't me, how should I know who was driving that day?"

Any judge with half a brain should be able to make asensible decision based on that but then again, this is British justice that we are talking about..good luck.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.


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 Post subject: Re: Prosecution pending
PostPosted: Wed Feb 23, 2011 22:27 
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Legal advice should be taken regarding the failure to furnish details of the driver - the S172 offence.
From what you have said you were clearly unable to do so, but seem to have legally slipped up in the manner in which you responded to the request.
Did they admit to having received your letter?
Bellman wrote:
I never filled in my NIP but wrote a letter saying i cannot recall driving this car and explained the form only seems to allow me to admit my guilt.


You need to clear THIS up, the speeding offence would seem straight forward in comparison with the correct legal advice.

you don't say where you are, but if you gave a clue, a poster here might be able to recommend a solicitor of the right experience - by PM if necessary.

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 Post subject: Re: Prosecution pending
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 13:18 
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Ernest Marsh wrote:
Legal advice should be taken regarding the failure to furnish details of the driver - the S172 offence.
From what you have said you were clearly unable to do so, but seem to have legally slipped up in the manner in which you responded to the request.
Did they admit to having received your letter?
Bellman wrote:
I never filled in my NIP but wrote a letter saying i cannot recall driving this car and explained the form only seems to allow me to admit my guilt.


You need to clear THIS up, the speeding offence would seem straight forward in comparison with the correct legal advice.

you don't say where you are, but if you gave a clue, a poster here might be able to recommend a solicitor of the right experience - by PM if necessary.


Hi, The letter i sent the police is part of the evidence as i sent it recorded and its part of the paperwork case details.
There is no way i can pay a solicitor i just cannot afford it, thanks.


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 Post subject: Re: Prosecution pending
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 19:43 
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Did you post your letter saying you did not have any information in the 28 days you were given to do so?
If you did and you can show that then you have discharged your obligation under S172. You don't have to fill in the form you simply have to reply.
If you sent the letter outside of the 28 days allowed you are guilty of failing to comply to a S172 notice. You can give mitigation that you responded by evidencing your letter and hope a penalty is not awarded by the court but the maximum fine is £1,000 and 6 points I believe.

As you were not and are not the registered keeper of the vehicle you cannot be presumed to be driving nor is there evidence that you were driving; the nomination by your ex is not evidence you were so you need not admit to driving at any stage.

A conviction for speeding is not possible without an admission from you as I understand it and it is hoped you will admit driving to reduce your points to 3 from 6. Most courts consider no penalty if you convince them you were confused and supplied the information you could after the allowed time; not all though as some apply the S172 criteria very strictly.

You need to take your choice.


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 Post subject: Re: Prosecution pending
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 21:43 
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GreenShed wrote:
Did you post your letter saying you did not have any information in the 28 days you were given to do so?
If you did and you can show that then you have discharged your obligation under S172. You don't have to fill in the form you simply have to reply.
If you sent the letter outside of the 28 days allowed you are guilty of failing to comply to a S172 notice. You can give mitigation that you responded by evidencing your letter and hope a penalty is not awarded by the court but the maximum fine is £1,000 and 6 points I believe.

As you were not and are not the registered keeper of the vehicle you cannot be presumed to be driving nor is there evidence that you were driving; the nomination by your ex is not evidence you were so you need not admit to driving at any stage.

A conviction for speeding is not possible without an admission from you as I understand it and it is hoped you will admit driving to reduce your points to 3 from 6. Most courts consider no penalty if you convince them you were confused and supplied the information you could after the allowed time; not all though as some apply the S172 criteria very strictly.

You need to take your choice.

Hi and thanks for the reply. I did post the letter to them within the 28 days and this is noted and received by them. On the same day they received it the police sent out a NIP reminder which i didnt answer to as i felt i had allready told them all i can.

I would have thought it would be actually perjury to admit to something i havent done (it works both ways) The reality of this is im not guilty to both the charges and have answered the police the only way i can. If im found guilty of either one or both offences then the law is an ass in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: Prosecution pending
PostPosted: Thu Feb 24, 2011 21:58 
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You can't be guilty of S172 charge because you have sent them a reply with what you say you know. You do not have to do that on their form.

If you were not driving then you can't be found guilty of this unless you admit to driving.

Your ex on the other hand can be found guilty of failing to ID the driver and of speeding because she can be presumed to be the driver. She can of course rebut that presumption but she will need a good story to succeed with that.


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