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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 17:47 
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I recently received my first speeding fine after 25 years driving. The NIP was for a section of road with a 60 mph maximum and i am very familiar with this area and aware that it is an average speed zone so was very surprised to see i am alleged to have exceeded the automatic camera device at 71 mph. I am positive that i did not do 71 mph through this area. I have not repiled to the NIP yet but have requested the evidence of my date, time stamp into and out of the zone along with the calculation/distance of my average speed. I have done this in writing. I know this has been received as it was sent recorded delivery and i have confirmed this with the enquiry line.
I have 3 main questions:
1 - do i wait until i get the evidence before completing the NIP? I don't mind going to court to get the evidence because i am that positive i was below 60mph.
2 - do they have to send this evidence?
3 - isn't it normal for the NIP through an average zone to state the "average" speed?

Thanks for any help.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 19:06 
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mickDubya wrote:
1 - do i wait until i get the evidence before completing the NIP? I don't mind going to court to get the evidence because i am that positive i was below 60mph.

You must complete the NIP (and within the time limit), otherwise you will face a seperate charge for 'failing to name'.

The point of a 'conditional offer' is that there no obligation for the authorities to furnish you with evidence (unless you contest the charge, thus rejecting the offer). You can request the evidence, to help you determine who was driving at the time of the offence, to help you complete the NIP.

mickDubya wrote:
2 - do they have to send this evidence?

They have no obligation (until you have stated that you will contest the validity of the charge/evidence).

mickDubya wrote:
3 - isn't it normal for the NIP through an average zone to state the "average" speed?

Yes. Average cameras determines an average speed between two cameras.

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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 21:50 
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Thanks for reply/advice. I will complete the NIP tonite.

Shouldn't my NIP state the offence as an average then? I ask this because to do 71mph i would have to be above 71 at some stage of the distance between the 2 cameras and i am 100% positive that i did not get above 60, never mind over 71mph.

If i contest the offence do they legally have to supply me with the evidence prior to appearing in magistrates court? If yes then this is what i will do.


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PostPosted: Thu Jun 30, 2011 23:33 
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mickDubya wrote:
I will complete the NIP tonite.

You have 28 days to consider all your options.

mickDubya wrote:
Shouldn't my NIP state the offence as an average then?

If captured by average speed cameras (SPECs), then the speed given should be an average.
Of course, you could have instead been pinged by a mobile camera within an inactive SPECs zone.

mickDubya wrote:
I ask this because to do 71mph i would have to be above 71 at some stage of the distance between the 2 cameras

Not necessarily - you could have been doing 71 all the way though ;)

But yes, you would have had to achieve at least 71 mph for your average to be determined as 71 - if caught by an average camera setup.
If caught by a mobile, then your speed will only need to be 71 for a short moment.

mickDubya wrote:
... and i am 100% positive that i did not get above 60, never mind over 71mph.

Why are you so sure?
What are the uncertainties of your knowledge?
Are you sure your speedo wasn't under-reading at the time?

mickDubya wrote:
If i contest the offence do they legally have to supply me with the evidence prior to appearing in magistrates court?

AIUI: assuming it is requested, evidence that is not copied to you at least 7 days before the trial is not admissible in the trial.

mickDubya wrote:
If yes then this is what i will do.

Only do this if you are sure. The odds will be stacked against you, even if you were within the limit.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 00:34 
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:welcome: mickDubya

[I am not a lawyer and I cannot advise you - it is highly advisable to seek proper legal advice.]

You can still plead guilty even on the morning of the Court case but you will then have had to refuse the conditional offer.
But you can hopefully achieve the evidence. It is a very unfair system. I would absolutely request to see all the evidence that they might have, from all the images and all video evidence, all equip. certificates, the training certificate of the officers training, where the offence took place. Check what the Av speed was set at, check that the order to authorise that speed for that bit of road and also check precisely what stretches of road and the 'date from' for that speed. I'd check the signs and make sure that everything is correct and to the letter of the Law.
I'd call and ask if the NIP is not specific about what recorded the alleged offence too.

You can check out http://www.pepipoo.com and goto their NIP checker ... They do have many lawyers on their forums, who might be able to help you - do ensure they are a lawyer before acting on that advice.

The last figures that I had, from Speed Check, were that it was only 1/19 who 'sped' or received a NIP from Average speed camera systems ...

If you believe that you were not, what makes you think this (as Steve has already queried)?
Many include many, many regular glances to the camera/speedo x 3 or more times as they approach every camera and in the Av systems many times more than this.

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 04:23 
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You are now caught on the horns of a dilemma.

Assuming you 100% believe/know you are innocent:
Do you take legal advice (£60 minimum fee for 30 minute consultation) or give in and just pay the fine and take the points.
You may be offered a speed awareness course (and NO points), but this will usually cost more than the fine, AND take up more of your time.

Read this: http://www.safespeed.org.uk/forum/viewtopic.php?f=5&t=15275&st=0&sk=t&sd=a
Then ask yourself if you have the financial means and the evidence to fight theirs.

Win or lose, the CPS has unlimited financial resources... the tax payer pays if they lose.
If they win they can apply to recover their costs from you.

They employ the services of experts from RSS Limited, who are prepared to do and say whatever it takes to secure a conviction. http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showtopic=43205&st=0
In that case, they hired somebody to prepare a report, which would have misrepresented to the court the status of a traffic order for the road in question.
When this was pointed out by the defendant, neither RSS nor their expert were prepared to review or alter the statement!

Good Luck! :wink:

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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 20:04 
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Like i said before, thanks for the advice/comments.
I am 100% sure i wasn't speeding as i remember driving toward this average speed zone (as i said i know it very well) and i remember knocking the cruise control down for the whole section. I've driven back along there to check the roads, signs etc and all appear legal to me.
What i find completely unsavoury is IF they have evidence of me speeding why do they not HAVE to present it? If i am given conclusive evidence that i WAS in fact speeding then i'll accept the consequences. Is this a case of them hitting loads of people with fines and 99% just shrug their shoulders and pay! As far as the camera is concerned i have verified the camera certificate from the number on the NIP and it clearly states it is an average camera, zone 1 to zone 3. I checked this distance in my car and i would have had to have been asleep to have speeded all the way through there!
I have completed the NIP and sent it back. When/if offered the £60 fine plus 3 points, unless i am given clear evidence that i was speeding through this zone i am going to contest it. Not because of the money or the points but simply because they can't expect people to pay without being given evidence - you wouldn't pay a gas bill without a meter reading that could be verified!!
Cheers,
Mick


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PostPosted: Fri Jul 01, 2011 21:39 
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mickDubya wrote:
I am 100% sure i wasn't speeding

I ask again:

Why are you so sure?
What are the uncertainties of your knowledge?
Are you sure your speedo wasn't under-reading at the time?

Were you asleep? :)

mickDubya wrote:
What i find completely unsavoury is IF they have evidence of me speeding why do they not HAVE to present it?

Because it is a "conditional offer". Its not nice, but this is the rationale.

mickDubya wrote:
When/if offered the £60 fine plus 3 points, unless i am given clear evidence that i was speeding through this zone i am going to contest it. Not because of the money or the points but simply because they can't expect people to pay without being given evidence - you wouldn't pay a gas bill without a meter reading that could be verified!!

So nothing to do with you not having been in excess of the limit? ...

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 00:51 
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IF they have evidence of you speeding, then they DO have to reveal it... BUT only if you elect to go to court, in which case you or your legal representative must be supplied with the evidence no later than SEVEN days before the hearing.

Were you travelling in traffic, or solo? If you go to court, you must be able to convince the magistrates that your version of events is believable.
If you were travelling at the same speed as everyone else, this would be a start, and might help prompt them to pay attention to the evidence presented!

If there were few other vehicles, then you will have an uphill struggle to convince the magistrates that you are innocent.
They are lay people, and easily hoodwinked by the often bogus testimony put forward by CSPs hired guns! :(

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PostPosted: Sat Jul 02, 2011 10:07 
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This won't help your predicament, but IMO you maybe want to check the accuracy of your speedometer, it may be unlikely that is is so far out, but if it is .... you'll want to find out, or the same thing could happen again anytime!

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