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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 15:14 
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Hi everyone,

Been doing some surfing about this NIP and need som1 to advice on how to fill this form I have also found the info below could this be used, share you experience with me plz

The system apparently works like this. You send the first letter saying you do not know who the driver
is and ask for a photo. The theory is they will not send it and your case will be dropped. That
is the theory but you get a lovely photo back from police videotaped evidence.

Letter two. You write and say you still cannot identify the driver and you hope the matter
does not go to court. Letter three is very similar to the second.

If you were photographed by a mobile unit you can go to letter four after receiving reply to
letter one. In this letter you ask for all the details to do with the mobile unit.

Item 1...Calibration records of all equipment used in the detection of the alleged offence.
Item 2...Maintenance records of all equipment used in the detection of the alleged
offence.
Item 3..Training records for the officer concerned in the use of the calibration equipment.
Item 4.. Copies of the certificate of competence issued to the officer concerned.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 20:05 
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You have to be careful with those, I believe.

http://www.policeoracle.com/news/Solici ... 34557.html

You can give it a go if you want. I think they used to work back in the day but most of the time these days the authorities are wise to such ploys and tend to be on their game a bit more.

I would certainly want a photo/video and confirmation of calibration. I would just write to them asking for the evidence. I would not include the bit about not knowing who the driver is as I presume that to be a lie and if they could prove it they you may unfortunately end up like the chap in the above link.


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 21:25 
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DoktorMandrake wrote:
I would certainly want a photo/video and confirmation of calibration. I would just write to them asking for the evidence. I would not include the bit about not knowing who the driver is as I presume that to be a lie and if they could prove it they you may unfortunately end up like the chap in the above link.

Yes, they don't have to identify the driver, and if you wish to use that defence it is incumbent on you to prove that there is no reasonable way you could have known who was driving. If you're the only named driver on the insurance policy, your chances are very slender.

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"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 22:36 
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Spike wrote:
The system apparently works like this. You send the first letter saying you do not know who the driver
is and ask for a photo. The theory is they will not send it and your case will be dropped.

I don't believe that theory was ever true.
Sure you might hear of the occasional 'success' where someone tried something like this, but these are very few and far between.

There have been instances where folks have 'beat the system' by naming other people, but others have lost, and paid dearly - at her majesty's pleasure!
Look up "perverting the course of justice".

The authorities are under no obligation to send you technical documents (calibration certificates, maintainable records, training documents, etc) unless you reject the conditional offer.

The best advice I could give:
If you believe you were in excess of the limit, then accept the penalty. Do that unless you are very sure there was a technical fault with the prosecution of the technical infringement, otherwise it really isn't worth fighting.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign


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PostPosted: Thu Aug 18, 2011 23:00 
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Was a Speed Awareness course offered? If so, I'd take that and forget trying to beat the system. Unfortunately, it's not really about justice or safer roads, though some would seek to maintain the pretense.

How far over the limit were you? Unless you are certain you can beat it, 3 points and a fine is sadly probably safer than trying to fight the power. It's instant justice. It's geared towards taking your money with little recourse or option for you. There are a lot of websites that will claim they can get you off speeding tickets. I know a few years ago people who have been successful exploiting loopholes but the authorities quickly get wise.

I would maybe still ask for the photo/video. Unless there is a SA course. Then I would take that.


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 13:23 
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thanks guys for the reply

can any of you please tell me me what is the worst charge you can get for EXCESS SPEED????


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 14:14 
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Spike wrote:
can any of you please tell me me what is the worst charge you can get for EXCESS SPEED????

If you've received the "Conditional Offer of Fixed Penalty" all you're going to get is 3 points and a £60 fine. You can get up to 6 points for speeding, a fine of up to £1000 (I think) and a six-month driving ban. Very extreme cases of speeding may be charged as Dangerous Driving which carries a potential two-year prison sentence.

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


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PostPosted: Fri Aug 19, 2011 16:24 
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Spike wrote:
Hi everyone,

Been doing some surfing about this NIP and need som1 to advice on how to fill this form I have also found the info below could this be used, share you experience with me plz

The system apparently works like this. You send the first letter saying you do not know who the driver
is and ask for a photo. The theory is they will not send it and your case will be dropped. That
is the theory but you get a lovely photo back from police videotaped evidence.

Letter two. You write and say you still cannot identify the driver and you hope the matter
does not go to court. Letter three is very similar to the second.

If you were photographed by a mobile unit you can go to letter four after receiving reply to
letter one. In this letter you ask for all the details to do with the mobile unit.

Item 1...Calibration records of all equipment used in the detection of the alleged offence.
Item 2...Maintenance records of all equipment used in the detection of the alleged
offence.
Item 3..Training records for the officer concerned in the use of the calibration equipment.
Item 4.. Copies of the certificate of competence issued to the officer concerned.

I would be delighted to answer your question.
The receipt of letters of this nature triggers a flag to shorten the route to a court summons at the ticket office. Every office in the UK already has a copy of the letters you describe and many others besides.

Some offices will send you the requested images some will not do so. In all offices the 28-day period you have to reply will not be stayed while the request for images is fulfilled.

If you do not make an acceptable reply a summons will be issued. Some offices will issue a reminder letter either before or after the 28 day period runs out.

You and other readers should be made aware that even the chap that retails the majority of this sort of crap failed when he attempted to use them and was duly convicted of failing to make an adequate reply. Perhaps it would be reasonable for him to publish the result of his own case alongside his marketing material. Of course showing the result of the practical test he carried out would be bad for business.

All the advice you need to fill in the form should be on the form.

You should really seek legal advice from a reputable solicitor if you are in any doubt as they are qualified to help you.

Be very wary of some firms who will encourage you to seek a way out by accepting mad schemes about clerical errors or technical points. I have just observed this very day someone who now owes the court a few quid short of £3,000.00 and has another 3 points on her licence. Not only that she owes her representatives for advice, a magistrates court hearing, an expert's report, a barrister to represent her at an appeal +VAT. Probably another £3,000.00 as an estimate.

£6,000.00 + 3 points + VAT as opposed to £60.00 + 3 points VAT free.

The choice is yours but don't be led to believe that whomsoever sent you the NIP/S172 request is going to be dealing with your expensive and useless letter for the first time.


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PostPosted: Sun Aug 21, 2011 11:17 
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Ah Greenshed, you're back! Gonna address any of the points you've been evading?

Didn't think so.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.


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PostPosted: Wed Aug 31, 2011 23:28 
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Joined: Wed Nov 16, 2005 18:50
Posts: 673
greenshed wrote:
Be very wary of some firms who will encourage you to seek a way out by accepting mad schemes about clerical errors or technical points. I have just observed this very day someone who now owes the court a few quid short of £3,000.00 and has another 3 points on her licence. Not only that she owes her representatives for advice, a magistrates court hearing, an expert's report, a barrister to represent her at an appeal +VAT. Probably another £3,000.00 as an estimate.


Indeed, be very wary, Nick Freeman has made an extremely good living by totally exonerating 99% of his clients by exploiting clerical and technical points of the law. Whilst greenshed has made a career in a very mundane office where he has nothing better to do than pretend to be a safety camera expert. Let's be honest, you have to be pretty near rock bottom if that is your fantasy!

Let's be clear, not actually committing the offence is in fact a technical defence!

Back to the actual question!

My advice would be, if you were the driver, and you are positive, then fill in the S172 declaring this. This fulfills your legal obligation with regard to naming the driver. Insofar as the speeding offence, to be honest, if you were speeding it would probably be far easier to just cough up and suffer the 3 points. However if you are unsure, I would send a letter making it clear that you intend to plead not guilty, and that you would like to see the evidence held against you.

Most safety camera partnerships will drop the case at this point, since they only want the money, not the hassle. However some will send the evidence, and continue with the case. In this eventuality you need to consult a motoring solicitor who will almost certainly be able to find a gaping hole in the prosecution case, since the partnerships are extremely slipshod (or even incompetent) at evidence gathering and management of staff. Legal advice however does not come cheap, expect to pay several hundred pounds for representation.

Although you will ultimately be reimbursed by the CPS if you win, they take up to a year to actually cough up your costs!


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