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http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/scotland/hig ... 189168.stm

reports suggest a council van overtook and then turned across the cyclist



my thoughts are of course with his family & friends.

My two sisters, one brother based down in the 'burb watched this event and recall their saying the promise had yet to peak. IG's GMP serving brother was one of the cops overseeing this event at the time. He said it was best call of duty he's had in his career to date ..






Each report says a full report has yet to be submitted to establish if charges are to be answered by the driver of the council vehicle.


I do not know what the weather was like.. I suspect rain and perhaps the odd blustery blast .. similar to here.


At just past noon in rainy conditions.. would not expect a micro-climate to cause black ice. Visibility per weather forecast was predicted as "good" per our eldest who was plannning a trip to the Highlands with his mates this weekend and has been keeping an eye on the weather so as to plan his "walks/rides" safely.

Think then we had better wait until police or press release any further details as the report does not tell me or indicate anything to speculate here.


My thoughts and sincere condolences are with this cyclist's family.. especially with his wife and twin small daughters .. one of whom I understand is still under medical supervision as a result of the complications which can sadly develop after a premature delivery.. and every parent's trauma. Jason also dealt with this with tender love and care as I understand from his blog and other reports which I read as a keen cyclist who roots behind our cycling prodigies .. willing them to do well. .... like Emma ..


And again these sportsmen/women with the real talent prove that they have the guts.. the determination... to succeed fair and square. And this guy was one such straightforward talent.


But whilst I mourn the passing of a talented sportsman, who was also dedicated to his family and had managed successfully by all accounts to balance his training with the needs of his family.. I also have compassion for the guy in the van who must feel just dreadful and shell shocked by this tragic outcome all the same.

As yet .. we do not know if he was driving without COAST values.. .. driving at a speed unsafe for the conditions .. at a speed unwise for the conditions or even at a downright carelessly OTT speed for the conditions .

Nor do we know of the service record of this vehicle and if poorly maintained.. then the driver is still liable for not applying POWER principles as a check.. whilst the employer could be vicariously liable for failure to service and failure in a duty of care to employee and others (Not a lawyer.. but I do know how the law can affect me if I mess up professionally .. ) So I do not know if the vehicle had a puncture.. low tyre tread.. incorrect tyre pressure which may have caused a loss of control.

I do not know if the council worker was tired or taken suddenly ill either.


All these will impact on outcome .. and potential charges brought too.


But whatever happens.. that driver is a normal bloke and will feel just numb with shock just the same as Jason's family.

SO .. I then have to say that I also have some compassion for the other party and his family as well.


All incidents create miserable trauma for all concerned after all and I do not think hitting the "blame" button without some logical reason or saliently standard reported facts is fair minded.


In the M60 case.. had "insider knowledge" as know personally the medic in A&E who dealt with it. He was a medical student in my year group .

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A Scottish cycling champion has died after a collision with a van

But still written as if the cyclist rode into the van, as always

Weepej// I do not read it any other way than there was a collision between a van and a person on a bicycle.



At this moment in time.. I have not been told or given any indication as to how come either party came into such tragic conflict.


All I know is that a talented cyclist and caring father of twin daughters and a soul mate to his wife died in saddest circumstances.


The only other fact I know is that a council employee drove that van. He is not the boy racer or uninsured chav or drug.drunken lout.

Some conditions.. chance.. fate.. coincidence all combined to create a tragedy.


I do not know what they were.


You do not know what they were.


An inquest will get the facts.

If the driver did something whcih warrants a charge. then forensics will provide evidence to support and the other party then has the right to counter and refute the charges.


That's how justice works.. not in the kangaroo courts as presided over by a deranged fool who has been found out in many fibs to date.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

From CW's website.

I gather he chose to train in his home area because he needed to look after one of his daughters. I gather this child was due to go into hospital for yet more treatment later this month.

A dreadful tragedy for all and condolences to the Mackintyre family. Like the Mad Doc.. I also show compassion for the other party involved in this - especially based on what has actually seen by me in the past at these shocking scenes. Regardless of blame or any potential charges pending investigations - each involved are in severe states of shock.

At present.. no one knows what happened so it may be inappropriate to all concerned to speculate.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Based on what has been said on this thread (and ONLY that IE I know I dont have *all* the facts)

I can hazard a pretty good guess!

But maybe I'll keep shtum for now and see if my suspicians are confirmed.

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

I also pass condolence to this cyclist's family und mourn yet another loss of a "someone who counted"

No one really knows what happen. A collision occurred with a transit van driven by a man in mid-thirties.

The road per CW ist "dangerous" und needs some engineering.


I think we have been on this road on a holiday in past. I know our eldest has recently been on this road on way to some "student jolly". Maybe better signing.. some civil engineering where it happen.

A speed cam will not solve it. I do not think from memory und report from eldest son (med student) who ist quite sensible really .. a COAST child who take things seriously when life matter.

Signs.. better layout of these signs.. might help .. along with an "awareness of danger at this spot" campaign.

Better a COAST hit though ..

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Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
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Just back from that part of the world -Carrs Corner ,as mentioned in many of the press bits is approx half a mile from the junction of the A82 and A830 , the entrance to the HDC yard is approx 2/300 yards south of the corner( Various quotes on the "notorious " Carrs corner - can't really see why as it's a fair way away from the accident spot. oBAN TIMES ARTICLE.Live Earth /Google do not show this area very well. HDC/LDC have recently constructed a cycle path from the road leading to the access path to the North face of the Ben to Lochyside. This crosses the HDC access road before the main road (i.e vehicles leaving the yard first come to the cycle path ,then the A82) ---but not knowing if he was on the cyclepath (which would have meant stopping /giving way to every access road crossing the path ???)
Any way there are two articles in local papers -Lochaber News and Oban Times --( oBAN TIMES ARTICLE) --as per a post else where .

Any suggestions that the area around the access road s the spot would seem to be borne out by the amount of jerseys and other tributes placed nearby.(If any one is interested to see this ,I have a (not very good photo,once developed ))

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

I too send my sincere condolences to his family.

I know the A82 pretty well. I cannot say that I 'know' the section mentioned, but I wonder about any oncoming vehicles causing the driver to more quickly pull back in to his side of the road and 'possibly' then colliding with the bike.
I read somewhere that the van was going North and the cyclist South, which puts a very different set up in place - but time will tell .....
How very sad. A great loss.

_________________
Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

C+ March 08 issue has an update on this tragedy. I think a very balanced piece on page 16.


Jason was one of our big talents and a serious loss to the sport. A devoted father as well.

Per the C+ account - Jason was hit by a council van which had made a right turn in front of him. The driver a Mr MacT* (he's named in the feature) claimed no liability - feeling a jolt on his nearside when Jason's bike collided with the van. The driver sasy that people are ssuming the cyclist was on the road and he does not think he was. The van driver thinks Jason was on a newly completed cycle path which runs parallel to the road and a few yards off it. The depot he turned into cuts across this cycle path and



Hmmmm!


Police have not charged the driver so far.

Now as the piece in C+ says quite fairly - the crucial part of the enquiry lies in whether or not Jason was on the path or on the road.


IF on the path - he would not have priority over a vehicle turning right (unless he was already in the process of crossing at the time the driver made his manoeuvre - and if this was so.. the driver should wait until clear

If Jason was on the road . then he would have the same right of way as any other vehicle over a vehicle waiting to turn right.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Can we pinpoint the bit that is n question ? get a postcode for the company - when I am next down that way, I could go and photograph it .... this was only a little while ago - so any shrubbery should be bare - maybe ....

Surely the accident showed marks to his location ..

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

Although there has been no mention of it thus far.

I wonder if the fact that this chap was a professional athlete out on a training run might have something to do with it.

He may have been traveling at twice (or even more) the speed of a "Normal" cyclist.

Its a bit like people who get run down by trains when trying to cross the lines, "Oh theres a train coming, but its 1/4 mile away, plenty of time BANG!"

_________________
"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

the statement of the driver is consistent with what i read when digging around a couple of weeks back.

not sure how the police can definitively say where he was riding at the time, depending on the seperation and where the van stopped.

if he was on the cycle path then i have some sympathy with the van driver, although there seems little excuse for not observing someone on the path you are planning to turn across be it ped or cyclist.

it's a good illustration anyway of the dilemma faced by this level of cyclist, travel at speed on a cycle path and have to give way regularly where on the road you would sail through with right of way, or ride on the road with associated normal traffic risks.

yesterday i was completing an organised ride which has a cycle path option for the last mile or so, quiet and quite well maintained... got a bit messy when it dumped us with give way lines to cross a small side turning of queued traffic.

First of all -see my last post RE "OBAN TIMES ARTICLE "---accident happened at entrance to HDC/LDC LA yard. I did query whether the cyclist was on the cycle path (runs from houses at /near path to North face (of Ben Nevis ) to approx the Distilery (approx oposite the A830/A82 junction).Company is Lochaber District Council /Highland Regional Council (Carr's Corner Depot ).The presence of a large quantity of racing jerseys attached to the fence would bear this out (As I said, have a picture of this ,should anyone wish to see it )
The Cycle path runs parallel to the right side of the A82 ( going toward Inverness ), and a few yards from the edge of the road


LOCATION

For clarification , have added notes to the map--- and have now got a post code and address --

Carr's Corner Depot , Carr's Corner Industrial Estate, Fort William PH33 6TL.

Map -

And from the air





The separation from the main road is about 5 yards or so --my problem is why a road racing cyclist would be on the cycle path at this point ,rather than on the road , bearing in mind that the road is not narrow, and although NSL has good visibility and sighting - far more so than in the past when this corner got it's notoriety,coupled with his obvious local knowledge which would have alerted him to the fact that he may well have had to give way a lot on the cycle path, rather than being able to keep up a decent speed on the A82 with right of way. (At that point the road is flat )

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Update - as some know my father is in hospital in Inverness - after a stroke(s) ---and periodically I get up there ,and stop at his near Fort William .
Saturday got a chance to get into the grounds near the council offices and take some pics(on small digital cam ) ,also from the A82 on both sides. Havent had a chance to download them yet or to tag on some labels so that all can see .The main question is ---
Was he on the road ,or the cycle path . Visibility from the road to the council road access is approx 150 metres ( from driving south on A82 and using the 40 countdown markers as a guide ( starts approx 5/10 yds before the acess road ).The access road is approx 1.5 tenths of a mile from the A830 junction .At the time of the fatality ,I cannot remember seing any markers for the end of the cycle path - now marked at this locality by wooden posts and give way signs - yet no indications to vehicles that a cycle path exists ,or that cyclists could appear .

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

The view from (my ) driving seat looking north: The tarmac between the lamp post and the NSL sign is cycletrack



Another view of the same -



View further back from the road


Looking south into the junction



And from slightly further north .Slightly mucky pic - but unusual for Fort Bill -sunny.



The now finished cycplpath ends ( don't remember seeing this on last trip up north)

_________________
lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Update on this story.. From CW



The driver has just been fined £500 and banned for 6 months.

The 36 year old pleaded guilty to a charge of careless driving at Fort William Sheriff court last week.

Naturally the outcome has angered MacIntyre's family who wanted the driver prosecuted on charges of "culpable homicide"
or causing death by dangerous driving..

McTaggart's defence lawyer told the BBC that his client simply did not see the cyclist coming at him. As a result the cycle went into the rear of the vehicle and the cyclist was tragically killed.
The lawyer added that MacIntyre was not wearing hiigh-visibility clothing and was in a "hunkered down position - making his body smaller"


OK .. fine in competition. But still, per Franklin and Bikeability - you make yourself SEEN and use your body to make it so SEEN But then MacIntyre was on a more or less empty road ..

The van had turned across the carriageway .. into MacIntyre's path (which means he struck the nearside rear if he hit the rear of the van .. :scratchchchin:)

Mac's father told the press outside the court that Jason was an outstanding cyclist.



Whilst I can understand his distress.. there was simply not enough evidence of dangerous driving .. other than the bloke turned right, and just did not look .. assumed that the road was empty. perhaps ..thus the only charge which had any chance of success was that of "careless driving". If this was the EU - it would have been "negligent driving" - which does actually carry a stiffer penalty in the European courts. But justice is still justice and not revenge - which only serves to create a life sentence of bitter anger. Jailing McTaggart would not have satisfied "revenge" either. Prisoners no longer live off bread and water in rat-infested dungeons any more

The sweeter "revenge", if you like,is to just accept the outcome with dignity. This makes the person who caused the death feel his guilt and remorse even more.. and that is his his own life sentence.


- But.. the other reason for the "careless charge" I It seems Jason did not slow down either. Vans do not appear out of nowhere to be blunt. This would be what the Sheriff, police and prosecution would have been looking closely at when laying charges. The high-vis had little to do with it .. but may have made the cyclist stand out and enable the driver to judge his speed of approach better perhaps

The court could only impose a fine and points or disqualification on this charge.. and unfortunately, it was the only charge possible after due investigation.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

Quite naturally .. CW's Kieth Bingham is spitting mad over this outcome

He writes



Perhaps .. but justice is about the administration of the law according to accepted and prescribed principles. - which is about being fair to the accused of a crime.. and taking account of human acts of stupidity - committed without intent to be stupid . Thoughout each generation - the human race has battled to conquer this "stupidity gene"

Revenge is about retaliating for wrongs or injury received. Justice .. is not about "revenge", but does seek in the case of malicious and deliberate crimes, to impose the sentences which show how much a society disapproves of such vicious acts.


KB reminds us of another cyclist killed when a driver pulled out without looking

He writes




Well .. on the other side of the coin .. we have a pedestrian who was badly injured by a cyclist who "claimed he did not see her" when he pulled out of a junction without looking.. Happened the other week... story somewhere in our local papers. :roll;

Or what about the two deaths within the last 7 months or so .. whereby the cyclists rode at speed and claimed they did not see the pedestians they hit and who died when their heads hit the kerb as they fell? By the way .. the fines were derisory and yes.. the families concerned wanted MANSLAUGHTER charges brought against the two cyclists in these separate incidents. There was no order to prevent their cycling either..

Abroad .. in many EU countries, including Holland and Dnmark - there are onuses on all road users .. pedestrians.. cyclists and drivers alike to be vigilant towards each other.




Actually . the same criteria applies. We have to find the evidence which proves beyond all reasoned doubt .. the exact nature of the carelessness (or rather negligence - because this law is our version of the EU's "negligent one") and how far that act of negligence caused the incident to occur. In the interests of justice - we also have to investigate, fully, the behaviour of the other party prior to the incident as well. It may be that we charge both or all parties. We have done so here in the past. We may have a low FPN tally.. but our fines are usually imposed by the courts as we prosecute a heck of a lot more for downright stupidity



Err. all the cases we have passed on the evidence to the CPS for prosecution carry the full investigation and what the outcome of this carelessness and dangerous acts created

I wonder how many actual court cases the writer here has actually attended ..



They take into account all the facts and circumstances.



It is why I keep saying COAST applies to EVERYONE whether on foot, on hoof, on wheels or in some wheeled contraption. :popcron:



This driver did lose his licence for 6 months. I would perhaps suggest they recommend a re-test or a compulsory DIS - but in the case of the DIS for such cases - remove the licence if they fail this course. At present .. they can lose licence if they fail to turn up or turn up and be "disruptive in class" - and we return the file back to the CPS for the court to do its job..



The law does and it is about justice for ALL parties involved - and not revenge



Indeed .. because our laws still have to take account of that one human gene which we all possess.. the "stupid one". I admit it appears to be more pronounced in some folk out there - but no one can afford to be complacent and all have a responsibility towards their own safety and that of others.

A pedestrian running along a footpath can collide with another and cause their death or serious injury .. just as a cyclist can and has done so.. An incorrectly filled filing cabinet toppling over and striking someone's head with the sharp corner .. Accidents.. Moment of not looking ahead.. moment of human stupidity.. and the law still has to take this into account to award justice to the idiot in the dock and punish accordingly.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.

As we have already pointed out ... a really tragic incident for all involved.. including the van driver.

I cannot find a link on the Bolton News site as quite naturally .. there are umpteen stories celebrating their golden boy.

Thread really belongs in "NEWS" .. but it is also relevant to this thread given the above outcome as reported up by IG.

But stuck at the bottom of the middle pages of Friday's paper and written by Saiqa Chaudahari is a piece about Bolton MP, Brian Iddon, who has



Now .. This would not have resulted in McTaggart facing more serious charges - even if on the statute book at the time of this incident. He did not see the cyclist who was allegedly "tucked down" and this kind of implies that he may not have been looking ahead either.. Also .. McTaggart may have noted .. but underestimated the speed of his approach.

From next week new laws will mean drivers who manage to kill someone "while not paying care to the road or other road users may face jail"

But .. the stuff which the courts are allegedly going to consider when deciding guilt of this charge are already covered by existing laws

Note the wording here... I think a token law in all reality



Sigh.. the case of the woman.. the phone.. the cyclist .. the red light.

Already set as precedent and she has a case for appeal against the sentence on-going per some other story seen on the original news site.



Provided for under existing law .. according to the legal beagles around the family





Already fined some bint for applying mascara .. but she did not have an accident and did so at the traffic lights.. allegedly..




rubber necking some one else's accident

I think this a very grey area and it certainly offers little remedy to Jason MacIntyre's family. But then .. as IG points out .. we have to differentiate between justice for all and revenge.



OK.. I have always supported that. but then here comes the rub..



WTF? SURELY the act of getting behind the wheel of a car when completely unentitled or legal to do so .. is a DELIBERATE ACT and their action in fleeing the police and refusing to stop for them is DELIBERATE. I think they have got the penalty the wrong ways around here



Spin doctoring .. mate.. As pointed out . they already exist in current traffic law and folk have been jailed for 4 and even 6 years already for killing when doing all those things.

_________________
If you want to get to heaven - you have to raise a little hell!

Smilies are contagious
They are just like the flu
We use our smilies on YOU today
Now Good Causes are smiling too!

KEEP SMILING
It makes folk wonder just what you REALLY got up to last night!

Smily to penny.. penny to pound
safespeed prospers-smiles all round! !
But the real message? SMILE.. GO ON ! DO IT! and the world will smile with you!
Enjoy life! You only have the one bite at it.

In this week's CW Jason's widow challenges the statement made by the driver's solicitor.

If you recall from the last update - the solcitor told the BBC outside the court that the driver simply did not see the cyclist and that the cyclist was "hunkered down .. making his body very small"

Now his widow says she finds it very hard to believe that the driver "simply did not see Jason" . True. But equally - when I am out riding, I do tend to see large vans and look at the road positioning just in case it's driven by a blind muppet wiith tunnel vision and a big hole where his brain should be .. and adjust accordingly. I am saying you never take anything out there fro granted or assume they have seen you or will even obey the ruddy highway code .. epsecially the "good practice tips bits" and I apply the comment to ALL road users so how they travel.. just to make it plain that those who post to this site are more interested in promoting a decent standard of safety

Now his widow was also not there.. but maybe knows her husband's riding style or thinks she knows his style.. but she says he was 6 foot 2 inches... An inch less than me... so yep .. big. Probably same slim, lean - but still muscly svelte shape as me too. So yep. Even hunkered down - he's still a notable size on his bike. I should post up a photo taken of me and the Mad Doc showing both of us first of all puffing and panting along last week up a huge hill and then more of less "hunkered down" as we enterered a straight after the descent! Could be the photo .. but I think we look noticable but then we were in in rather dazzling yellow gilet of hi-viz gear.

She claims that




Ahh.. witnesses. Now the "hunkered down issue" must have come from someone other than the driver who claims he simply did not see him... for whatever reason. Was his glance into the opening. Did he see - but simply misjudge his speed of approach and make the turn despite an approaching bicycle? .. because to lop over a pick-up truck suggests some kinetic force between the two vehicles all the same His natural defence will be that he never saw him.. his brain will not be able to sort out how the collision occurred and he will be convinced that he simply "did not see him". I've seen this scenario so many times in interview rooms and court rooms over the years.. You are interviewing these folk and wondering all the time .. how the hell could he or she have missed the obvious? But they do.. glance for a second too long in the WRONG direction .. and you miss something and it just takes one or all parties involved to do do to have a tragedy.

She continues




So these approaching vehicles could not have been "speeding" given we travel for around 15 metres pers second at 30 mph and 30 metres per second at 60 mph. We are talking some distance of approach here 16 seconds is a long time and quite some distance covered.

And the "hunkered down issue" must have come from someone other than McTaggart if he "simply did not see him". I would doubt that the driver behind McTaggart could testify from so far back accurately enough as to his positioning on the saddle all the same though. So perhaps one of the other drivers who did see the cyclist made the comment.. which would have been seized on and played on by the defence lawyerto place that "element of doubt into the court"?



Ah.. but we still cannot be 100% sure and I am still not going to take any such gambles with my head.

But I do suspect that internal bleeding from other vital organs .. plus shock .. claim far more lives all the same. The Mad Doc can put us right if I am not correct ..

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!

Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.