Safe Speed Forums

Only when the execution of an unsafe manoeuvres would threaten the cyclists safety. There are many motorists who would attempt to squeeze through a gap so narrow that they would be almost certain to threaten the cyclist they are passing. There are very few motorists who would deliberately run down the same cyclist from behind if the gap he left was insufficient for him them to pass.

ISTR that you are motorcyclist, Robin. A motorcycle is, ftsoa, just under one meter wide. A car about two. If you were riding on a three meter wide road and a fast car came up behind you would you ride in the gutter to leave a two point one meter wide lane for him to pass you at speed. Or would you maintain your normal riding position, a meter or so from the kerb?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Empirically, the word would not be lawless, but argumentative.

I never known so many people with such a common interest and love of cycling be at odds with each other, or such odd people advocating a dangerous activity such as using a Primary Position.

All I would like to know is whether it is more unsafe to be stuck out in the middle of the lane, on your side of the road, and is it going to aggravate drivers. I say yes on both counts based on my own experience and that’s good enough for me.

Even if a PP is safer by some weird bending of statistics or goof who thinks he knows better because he got his Master’s on cycling issues, the fact is other drivers aren’t going to know WTF you are up to and they will get pi55ed off with you which could lead to any number of outcomes. Tell me I'm wrong? I think that's what lead up to the van driver's behaviour myself. (Again, not saying that what he did or his reaction was right).

I’m certainly not going to put my life at greater risk to prove it so I guess GC, Weepej and DCB can carry on using the PP and I’ll carry on as I do. Just don’t come running to me if you get nudged or knocked off by a driver and break a leg because of it.

ADD: If you are far enough over to the curb such that they can safely overtake you that has to be better than blocking drivers or worse still risking that they will try and overtake you closer.

Isn’t this also why, or partly why, you should not ride two abreast which has not been mentioned yet? The one on the outside would effectively always be riding in the PP bogging the traffic down and causing mayhem.

Case closed I think

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Is it mostly cyclists who adopt the "primary position" who post videos on the net showing other vehicles cutting them up? If so, maybe this riding style causes them to experience these incidents on a more frequent basis.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

For a moment, I wondered if my eyes had totally failed me, so I went back to check.
Here it is in it's entirety:

"Keep within the lane when practicable." so did I misquote?
There is no 'When using a cycle lane, ...' which is indeed a very different thing.

I think I know where your error is. A quick Google (something you should have done?) shows your version of the wording has already been superseded. Your version was in effect years ago (2007): http://www.ctc.org.uk/DesktopDefault.aspx?TabID=4856
It is no longer the case.

This one is current: http://www.direct.gov.uk/en/TravelAndTr ... /DG_069837

'If you're going to be pedantic....'

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

This is specious; on a motorcycle I am more than able to keep up with free-slowing traffic speeds, unlike a bicycle. I would however make every effort to allow someone who wanted to travel faster than I was comfortable with to pass. I certainly would not obstruct them under some arrogant opinion that I know better than them. If I felt their actions were likely to endanger me I would take steps to protect myself without trying to impose my will on them, potentially including slowing down or even stopping if necessary.

The whole "obstructing motorists as the only option to save oneself" is rot. It is actually the option which is most convenient for the cyclist; they're unwilling to put themselves out, so they inconvenience others.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

I am not misquoting. You are misinterpreting. The injunction to "Keep within the lane where practical" is an instruction to cyclists who do choose to use the lane that they shouldn't switch in and out of it at whim . It is not an instruction that you must use the lane at all times when it is practical. The last sentence of 63 is quite clear on that.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Well that hasn't happened to me in over fifty years so the High side can't be that dangerous.


Indeed it is. But the situational I am talking about is where riding close to the kerb means that they can overtake you only by coming dangerously close to you and than you are in serious danger of being nudged


This thread has convinced me that this board really isn't worth contributing to. That you of all people should pile the last straw is totally unexpected as I always took you to be a man of sense. So farewell and thanks for all the fish.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Exactly, and it works with the vehicles swapped too.

If someone wants to pass/overtake me when I’m driving, I make it easy for them, not needlessly more difficult.

PeterE was spot-on with HC rule 169; 168 also applies too.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

a skilled motorcyclist would be in a position about 3/4 of the lane away from the kerb edge on a straight road so they are in the view of following traffic. Quite near the centre line in other words.
Why would they have to compromise position to other traffic? They are a vehicle just as capable as the majority of other traffic.
If someone wanted to pass then the same applies as it would in whatever vehicle was being driven; allow them to do so if safe and convenient.

You have been proven to be wrong, on both counts!


Did I say you did?
You quoted from a obsolete version of the HC.

(actually you did misquote with your last post: practical isn’t practicable; this is, of course, a distinction without a difference)


I think you are stretching credulity there.

The statement "Keep within the lane where practicable" means just that, keep within the lane where practicable; not compulsory, not always, not never, not regardless of obstacles, but where practicable. This is not in conflict with the last sentence.



And needlesly frustrating traffic, then forcing them even further out when passing, makes it better?

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

You shall be missed, and yes, by me.

You have a PM, I hope you read it.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Good afternoon.

Whilst I certainly don't have time to take part in these, enthralling discussion, I thought I would interject a little wisdom on proceedings.
http://tinyurl.com/ycvtkt6

My average speed over the course of the Etape Caledonia in 2010 (81 relatively hilly miles) was 19mph. I'll let you draw your own conclusions!

Carry on!

That wasn’t ad-hominem DCB and I haven’t fallen out with you even if you have with me. You’re trying to suggest I have stabbed you in the back when I have done no such thing.

I’ve never known you shy away from a logical argument and I think it is both unfair and hurtful of you. I thought you knew and understood my style by now, just as I thought I understood yours.

If you really want to take umbrage, that is your prerogative. But I am very surprised it is over something like this because I have often agreed with you on matters and respected how you have always ‘told it as it is’ as you see things without taking sides.

I say again, what is the difference between PP and riding two abreast which is against the advice given in the Highway Code??? And if you do decide to wave goodbye, which I sincerely hope you don't, maybe GC or weepej can provide an answer please?

I do get things right occasionally you know and I think I make a valid point.

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

There isn't the information needed to establish an association, because the information exists for only one of the groups, and in any case there may be other reasons for such an association, but it is nevertheless a good question. So I went and looked back at all my YouTube videos (in took 15 minutes, Steve), looking at all the ones where I felt endangered by a driver's behaviour and noting my road position in each one. In 35 of the cases, I was either in secondary position or overtaking parked cars* (30 in SP and 5 overtaking parked cars), and in 8 cases I was in primary position for some other reason, including avoiding pot-holes. I have included riding in the cycle lane as secondary position

In two of the 8 PP cases, the incident was a SMIDSY, one of a car coming from the offside and passing within about a foot of the kerb on my side anyway (well, a SMIDGAF actually), and the other was a car entering a roundabout without looking. In one of SP cases, the incident was a SMIDSY, with the car coming across two lanes and encroaching on the cycle lane that I was riding in!

(* Note that overtaking parked cars in the door zone is, statistically, tantamount to attempted suicide, so you have to move out leave at least 1.3m clearance between you and the parked cars.)

You may look at these yourself if you wish, they are all public, and I accept that you may disagree with my views, but this is my own experience.

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"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without argument.” - Julian Assange

I've never seen this acronym before but I reckon I get its meaning.


Yes, I agree with this.

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Malcolm W.
The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not represent the views of Safespeed.

The link expanded:
webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.dft.gov.uk/ consultations / archive / 2004 /ltnwc/annexdcodeofconductnoticefor1688

Current: 1, 2.

Conclusions drawn!

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

From this morning's commute, here's a clip of me cycling in a stupid and dangerous manner: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7zQlyghId_Y

(You should read the description by the way.)

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"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without argument.” - Julian Assange

I viewed about 10 of them, at random. I see late reactions but precious little C.O.A.S.T.


Did you see the pothole as you approached it? Is that part of a regular commute?

If you thought it could have been a genuine problem, then did you slow down for it, or did you risk your "life for the sake of a few seconds"?

Besides, that "pothole" looked a bit square - exactly like a typical, slightly sunken, drain grate.

In that kind of situation I would have been much further to the kerb, even on the outer yellow line - yes this really is a typical position for me - yes I normally ride over the grates. That car would have passed me with ample room and wouldn't have perturbed me at all.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Not taking the bait, sorry. The video is there, everyone can draw their own conclusions as they please. Hope it's useful to people, that's all. If not, then no harm done.

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"That which is asserted without evidence, can be dismissed without argument.” - Julian Assange