Safe Speed Forums

The campaign for genuine road safety
It is currently Thu Apr 18, 2024 01:06

All times are UTC [ DST ]




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 
Author Message
 Post subject: Red Means Stop
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2007 12:06 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 23:42
Posts: 3820
Couple of weeks ago CW contained a reader rant which claimed a supposed "safe point" at which it was "safe" to cross lights at red. This reader alleged this to be at the point when all roads at the junction are on a red setting. Er .. we are talking of not more than two seconds here :roll:

Another reader replies commendably to that reader in this week's mag. :bow:


Quote:

Whether or not there is a "supposed safe point" at which to run red traffic lights is an irrelevancy. It is illegal and even amber MEANS :stop: STOP

But by his actions RS does nothing but reinforce the view of many - namely that many cyclists today a a bunch of irrepsonsible yobs who should not be allowed on the road let alone share them


Hey .. steady on there mate! Next week's letters should be interesting :popcorn:

Quote:

RS should be thoroughly ashamed of his remarks and should be castigated


:D :yesyes: "safe point" to jump a red light indeed :nono:

Quote:

He is not helping the eternal struggle to get the respect and courtesy from other road users. If he continues with this his chevron covered rucksack is not going to save him


Blimey .. a top rant and he did not mince his words. Brave CW for publishing this :popcorn:

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Red Means Stop
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2007 23:19 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311
In Gear wrote:
Brave CW for publishing this :popcorn:

I don't think so, it's rare to see real cyclists (as opposed to 4x4 riders and other assorted non-lycra wearing idiots :wink: ) running red lights.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Red Means Stop
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 00:52 
Offline
Friend of Safe Speed
Friend of Safe Speed
User avatar

Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 23:09
Posts: 6735
Location: Stockport, Cheshire
johnsher wrote:
it's rare to see real cyclists (as opposed to 4x4 riders and other assorted non-lycra wearing idiots :wink: ) running red lights.

How can I identify these "real cyclists"?

Here in Greater Manchester it is commonplace to see all kind of cyclists from crusty youths to sedate pensioners sailing through red lights and mounting pavements :(

_________________
"Show me someone who says that they have never exceeded a speed limit, and I'll show you a liar, or a menace." (Austin Williams - Director, Transport Research Group)

Any views expressed in this post are personal opinions and may not represent the views of Safe Speed


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 12:07 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Sat Aug 13, 2005 23:28
Posts: 1940
Was clearing out filing cabinet und archiving or chucking out "dead" items Came across this from the Indy. I forgot about it. But since liebster IG has posted up something from CW .. it somehow seem appropriate.

I will pass my comments in passing - as usual :wink: :lol: I shall try not to murder the English language .. but you know my spelling by now :lol:

I also think I go off topic a little as I bring in Bikeability .. but I think it relevant :wink: anyway :wink:

Quote:
James Daley: The Cycling Column
The Highway Code isn't always right, you know
Published: 17 April 2007
After writing two weeks ago about the high proportion of women cyclists killed by heavy goods vehicles, someone was kind enough to send me the full report from which the statistics had first originated.

What I hadn't realised was that the research had been commissioned by Transport for London, but never made public - perhaps due to the controversial nature of the findings.

After revealing the alarming statistic that 18 out of 21 female cyclist fatalities in London between 1999 and 2004 involved HGVs, the report concluded that this was probably due to the fact that women are less likely to jump red lights than men (an explanation that I had suggested when I first wrote about the issue).



I find this confusing. I have not seen this report und I think perhaps this journalist ist doing what journalists do best - mis-reading or reading what he want to read in wording of this report. Ist a bit like our company m getting bad press because of pricing to NHS :wink: Look.. it feed back to more R&D :roll:

Are these collisions then down to the cyclists riding down the inside of these long vehicles und then being in wrong place when this vehicle turn left? :scratchchin: I see drivers mis-judge und even show irritation at the HGV drive who ist in L2 lane but indicating LEFT. But he ist there for a reason: he has a long trailer behind him which has to stay on roadway und not kerb pavement und perhaps overturn the lorry.

Understanding why another road user appear to behave as he does ist vital for road safety. We know why cyclist will choose a primary riding position .. to be seen in the traffic und be valid part of that traffic .. und the truckers likewise will have a reason to have their road positioning too.


So perhaps this problem ist not so much about jumping red lights .. but not filtering along outside of these trucks to reach the ASL lines und position in PROMINENT view und then set off ahead of these large vehicles.


Quote:

"Women may be over-represented in this type of collision because they are less likely than men to disobey red lights. This might increase the likelihood of coming into conflict with turning goods vehicles waiting at junctions."




Ist then to do with not taking the primary position. I see cyclists all the time riding far too close to the kerb .. even for secondary position. Ist simple .. take the mettle .. grab the bars .. COAST it .. und negotiate with the traffic .. blend in und mix with it with courtesy... but make sure bicycle has a blinkin' light und cyclist wears a "gerra a load of my colourful sassy lycra" outfit .. which make them stand out in a crowd :lol: (I do not really advocate yellow leggings or the ones IG wear with the yellow stripes as I think they make him look like some ol' lag from Durham Jail und not the Cop Shop :rotfl: )

Quote:

The research was handed to TfL last summer, just a few weeks before the Mayor, Ken Livingstone, wrote an angry letter to The Independent complaining that my advocacy of red light jumping was irresponsible, and was bad news for relations between cyclists, motorists and pedestrians in the capital.

How ironic then that his own research, published just days before, had suggested that jumping red lights could actually save cyclists' lives.




If you ride or drive down the inside of a large vehicle .. you are not being sensible. You are getting into their blind spot und - remember.. they are very high up und you could be just out of view of their nearside wing mirror. Also look at their signalling. I have to admit that odd motorway drive apart .. I do not recall seeing a HGV fail to indicate in an urban .. unless foreign .. und if foreign.. give as much space as possible as these will not be to same calibre as liebste "towie und philthy" on PH.. "scanny und Littlegoozle or Drasta" on this board :wink:

I think that he lift one sentence out of context from this report perhaps .. und perhaps Paulie und selves should try to get copy of this research piece to check out what it really says in full context.


Quote:
I'm not trying to spark another hysterical debate about red light jumping here, but surely the results of TfL's research are compelling enough to lead it at least to consider making some changes to the traffic rules for bicycles.

According to the report, almost 55 per cent of cyclist fatalities involving HGVs took place when the lorry was turning left - crushing a cyclist caught on the inside. Perhaps such incidents could be prevented if cyclists were, at the least, permitted to turn left at red lights.

This is not such a crazy idea. Indeed, in the US (where they drive on the right-hand side of the road), even motorists are allowed to turn right at red lights, as long as they give way to pedestrians crossing the street as well as any oncoming traffic.



I can list a lot of junctions up here whereby the left lane filter ist a GIVE WAY und not controlled by the lights.

But ist still a case of the cyclist riding up the nearside of the large vehicle und not positioning in primary set off position at the lights und why anold Cycling Proficiency taken years ago ist not enough. However long you have ridden .. that Bikeability course give serious tuition und food for thought.. as it advocate more primary und less riding on the kerb line which ist how majority seem to ride to me.

Naturally .. rider should be negotiating with the traffic und if holding up the traffic .. then courtesy dictate moving to a secondary to allow safe overtakes of the traffic building up behind. I do this as I feel a bit "self conscious" when a load of tourists are behind me on our lovely roads around here .. und so I look ahead to move to secondary if safe to do so . .. or cycle into a lay-by und gear down so as not to lose too much cadence on the pedalos .. und assist their overtakes.. und continue feeling a lot safer und also knowing that those drivers appreciated my courtesy same as I appreciated their courtesy in patiently driving at distance behind me.

But this Bikeability course .. it does actually teach this via a CTC INSTRUCTOR und we did this course with all our children aged 19. 17. 14, 9 und 7. Littlest kitten ist too young .. but she was with us as we felt a little brush up with trailers und child seats would not go amiss anyway. She did get a lesson though when we did the "riding in the park" bit of this course. :wink: I can recommend booking a family session on this basis. :wink:

Quote:

Introducing a similar left-turning rule for motorists in the UK would be bad news for cyclists, as bikes would be just as likely to get cut up by left-turning cars. However, if such a rule were introduced just for cyclists, it would allow them to clear the traffic safely, and to get out from under the wheels of left-turning lorries and other vehicles.


As said .. some junctions around the country do allow this on a filter or Give Way system.

Und you can of course "cheat" :wink: If in doubt at a red light und I want to go left .. I dismount und wheel the darned thing to where I want to ride und set off again :lol: I am sure the lurks will boo und hiss at this. :lol: But I care not. I like to stay alive anyway :lol: I may have 9 lives .. but I already used up a couple already :wink:

Quote:
And if you're going to allow cyclists to turn left on a red light, why not also allow them to cross red lights when the traffic has been stopped for pedestrians? (Making sure to give way to people on foot, of course).



But there are toucan crossings und Pegasus crossings. If ist a pelican.. then cyclist has to dismount und then set off again. I see no real problem with this . After all at these busy urban crossings.. you come across Mamas with prams.. with toddlers.. with five year old infants.. people in wheelchairs .. with walking sticks.. blind people with dogs.. und so on. Und in London .. I dare say the whole spectrum of human frailties ould be present all at the same time on those very busy bustling streets. :roll:


Und ist as I said before .. you "cheat". You dismount und wheel the bike across und then rejoin the road in a proper primary pedalling away to get up the speed to fit in with the traffic flows as prevail at the time. :wink:

Ist common sense - nicht? :popcorn:

Quote:
Traffic rules should be about common sense - about ensuring the safety of drivers, cyclists and pedestrians alike, while keeping the traffic moving as freely as possible. I despair at the number of e-mails I've had asking me whether I've ever heard of a document called the Highway Code. Yes, I have. But I think parts of it are now outdated, particularly in light of the growing number of cyclists taking to our roads. If we want to make cycling one of the main forms of transport in cities and towns, we need to update our rules to ensure that the roads are safe and easy to use for people on bikes.



I think the more people ride bicycles .. then the Highway Code will change .. und there will be stringent rules for cyclists - including a very much enforced requirement not to jump red lights und to adhere to speed limits in keeping with average cycling stamina und abilities.


If you have thousands of people using bicycles .. then there will be rules.. rules regarding wearing a registration number on the back of the lycra/hi-viz vest .. keeping to a strict set of traffic rules just the same.. parking restrictions .. und all the things which are curren bain of Mr Average Driver's life. :wink:

There ist no such place as "Cyclotopia" as civilised behaviour requires some hard rules after all :wink: Und I dare say C+/CTC/CW etc will have a similar campaign to this one when it happen :wink: :wink: :wink:

Quote:
No matter how much fuss motorists make about it, cyclists will continue to jump red lights. In most cases, the reason we do it is not anarchy, it is to protect ourselves and not to lose the momentum we have gained.

It's time for the authorities to engage the cycling community in a sensible debate about this, rather than simply continuing to call for a crackdown.




As IG say.. each sequence of lights have around a two-three second waiting time on red. Change from red/amber to green.. can be one or two seconds dependent. All it need ist for driver to make speedy get aways und they collide with a cyclist who jump the red light. :roll:


Ist red for a reason .. und if every man, woman und child in this country take up cycling tomorrow .. then those red lights will be just as needed und :stop: willl be required by cyclists even more.

Now ist not what the lurks want to read. I know this.


But it happens to be life... und will remain a factor of life on our roads. If we return to horse or horse und cart.. we would still have to abide by a set of rules .. such as red traffic lights und Give Way signs und even speed limits within a reasoned tolerance (of course :twisted: ... we will all blip up und down und sometimes a smidgeon too much just the same ... und warning rather than threats to mobility und livelihood over these "blippy smidgeons" work more effectively after all :wink:) will still be a factor of life on our highways und cycle paths und bridle paths even :wink:

_________________
Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien
!


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject: Re: Red Means Stop
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 14:01 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311
PeterE wrote:
johnsher wrote:
it's rare to see real cyclists (as opposed to 4x4 riders and other assorted non-lycra wearing idiots :wink: ) running red lights.

How can I identify these "real cyclists"?

reading what you quoted may help.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 14:08 
Offline
Gold Member
Gold Member
User avatar

Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2005 00:04
Posts: 2311
WildCat wrote:
Are these collisions then down to the cyclists riding down the inside of these long vehicles und then being in wrong place when this vehicle turn left? :scratchchin:

You'd be amazed at the number of idiots who will try and squeeze through the narrowest of gaps between bus/truck and kerb to get to the front of the queue - even if the vehicle they're passing has started moving :yikes:


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
 Post subject:
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2007 20:00 
Offline
User
User avatar

Joined: Fri Apr 02, 2004 23:42
Posts: 3820
johnsher wrote:
WildCat wrote:
Are these collisions then down to the cyclists riding down the inside of these long vehicles und then being in wrong place when this vehicle turn left? :scratchchin:

You'd be amazed at the number of idiots who will try and squeeze through the narrowest of gaps between bus/truck and kerb to get to the front of the queue - even if the vehicle they're passing has started moving :yikes:



I know, John,


Sadly - they do not help themselves nor other cyclists.


But then .. these are the ones who do not read the Highway Code.. Cycle Craft or even CW or C+ mags which at least carry some decent advice as to how to ride safely.

For the sake of the C+ magazine .. I stress again... the magazine is excellent reading. Richard Peace's articles are truly excellent and I did not post all he wrote.. so do browse and learn or buy as lots of decent reviews and rides in the issue :wink:

Blimey.. I should get commission 'ere :lol: Oi! Editor!

By the way Wildy.. I have to say .. that was some post there .. Phewy!

Have to say.. I cannot pick you up or challenge you on that one.

_________________
Take with a chuckle or a grain of salt
Drive without COAST and it's all your own fault!

A SMILE is a curve that sets everything straight (P Diller).

A Smiley Per post
FINES USfor our COAST!


Approach love and cooking with reckless abandon - but driving with a smile and a COAST calm mind.


Top
 Profile Send private message  
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 7 posts ] 

All times are UTC [ DST ]


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 8 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You can post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
Powered by phpBB® Forum Software © phpBB Group
[ Time : 0.021s | 13 Queries | GZIP : Off ]