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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Fri Jan 23, 2009 21:40 
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Steve wrote:
An easy solution: install a switch for a pedestrian activated pedestrian phase. If that is implemented then there’s no reason for pedestrian risk or frustration. If not then either we’ve missed something or Boris has. Let’s put some of that CC money to good use.


It would be easy Steve, not 100% sure it would work though, some sets of lights don't require a facility for pedestrians to cross so you could end up restricting the flow of traffic at one point and having a stretch of empty road beyond the crossing, leading to complaints that the pedstrian lights are causing congestion! De ja vu!

It would also depend on the pedestrian phase lasting long enough for the slower members of society to get across. Something I'm not sure happens everywhere.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 09:51 
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Peyote wrote:
Steve wrote:
An easy solution: install a switch for a pedestrian activated pedestrian phase. If that is implemented then there’s no reason for pedestrian risk or frustration. If not then either we’ve missed something or Boris has. Let’s put some of that CC money to good use.


It would be easy Steve, not 100% sure it would work though, some sets of lights don't require a facility for pedestrians to cross so you could end up restricting the flow of traffic at one point and having a stretch of empty road beyond the crossing, leading to complaints that the pedstrian lights are causing congestion! De ja vu!

It would also depend on the pedestrian phase lasting long enough for the slower members of society to get across. Something I'm not sure happens everywhere.


To add, on many many junctions in London the pedestrian phase button would be activated by pedestrians all the time, certianly during rush hour; there's always somebody wanting to cross the road, so what would be the point ot if?


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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 10:36 
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weepej wrote:
Johnnytheboy wrote:
that due to recent road "improvements" in London (e.g. retiming of traffic lights etc.)



What you mean like upping theo duration of the all red phase so pedestrians can actually get across without being set upon by twenty agressive cars/motorcyclists/cyclists?

Don't worry, Boris is going to set them all back to "RUN FOR IT!" levels, the nice man.


So basically - setting aside the rights or wrongs of huge pedestrian phases - you can clearly engineer yourself IN to congestion, but you still can't engineer yourself OUT?


:?


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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 13:21 
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So basically - setting aside the rights or wrongs of huge pedestrian phases - you can clearly engineer yourself IN to congestion, but you still can't engineer yourself OUT?


Yep! Always easier to engineer a bad situation than a good one. That's because there are verry very many bad situations and only a few good ones. It's called entropy. :)

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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 15:51 
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Peyote wrote:
It would be easy Steve, not 100% sure it would work though, some sets of lights don't require a facility for pedestrians to cross so you could end up restricting the flow of traffic at one point and having a stretch of empty road beyond the crossing, leading to complaints that the pedstrian lights are causing congestion! De ja vu!

I say tough! If a pedestrian needs to cross then there should be a reasonable allowance for them to do so (even if not immediately so).

Peyote wrote:
It would also depend on the pedestrian phase lasting long enough for the slower members of society to get across. Something I'm not sure happens everywhere.

That's why pedestrian crossings have the flashing yellow phase. With that the slower pedestrians can get a long way across without any risk at all and the rest of the way with a substantially reduced risk - that's got to be better than not being able to cross at all!

weepej wrote:
To add, on many many junctions in London the pedestrian phase button would be activated by pedestrians all the time, certianly during rush hour; there's always somebody wanting to cross the road, so what would be the point ot if?

On those 'many junctions', it would encourage the pedestrian to wait for their dedicated phase, as opposed to risking it because they know there won't be one for them; at all other junctions will be of benefit.

I’ll be stunned if people think this is a bad idea compared to having nothing at all. I'm open to more pragmatic solutions.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 20:42 
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Steve wrote:
Peyote wrote:
It would be easy Steve, not 100% sure it would work though, some sets of lights don't require a facility for pedestrians to cross so you could end up restricting the flow of traffic at one point and having a stretch of empty road beyond the crossing, leading to complaints that the pedstrian lights are causing congestion! De ja vu!

I say tough! If a pedestrian needs to cross then there should be a reasonable allowance for them to do so (even if not immediately so).


I agree, but see up the thread for the reaction to this perceived injustice against motorists.

Steve wrote:
Peyote wrote:
It would also depend on the pedestrian phase lasting long enough for the slower members of society to get across. Something I'm not sure happens everywhere.

That's why pedestrian crossings have the flashing yellow phase. With that the slower pedestrians can get a long way across without any risk at all and the rest of the way with a substantially reduced risk - that's got to be better than not being able to cross at all!


Well, in an ideal world this is what would happen, but Weepj has explained the reality of the "flashing yellow phase" above. The alternative is a longer "green man phase" and we're back to were we started!

Basically it's a no win situation, you can't cater for pedestrians and motorists, and not expect one group to complain, generally because of a lack of empathy and full understanding of the 'bigger picture'.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 21:53 
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Peyote wrote:
I agree, but see up the thread for the reaction to this perceived injustice against motorists.

I've had a very quick scan through the thread, but it might have been too quick because I found no relevant sentiments. Yes there are a few about retiming of lights and additional needless lights instead of roundabouts (which I agree with) but none about pedestrian lights; could you link to posts showing otherwise?

Peyote wrote:
Well, in an ideal world this is what would happen, but Weepj has explained the reality of the "flashing yellow phase" above.

Sorry, but I think that observation is bubcus! Not once I have I ever seen motorists surging at pedestrians, making clear statements, or roaring off afterwards when crossing during during the flashing amber phase (I would have reported any driver doing that).

Peyote wrote:
The alternative is a longer "green man phase" and we're back to were we started!

No, there's always other alternatives if one looks deeply enough. Even if the observation claimed is true, is it not beyond the wit of man to find a way to retain the 'pedestrian only' phase for longer when people request it, or when people are still on the crossing?

Almost everyone can win without invoking a sense of injustice! Only those who are determined to be utterly selfish are invariably those who have flourished thanks to misguided our speed camera policy.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 22:06 
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Steve wrote:
Sorry, but I think that observation is bubcus! Not once I have I ever seen motorists surging at pedestrians, making clear statements, or roaring off afterwards when crossing during during the flashing amber phase (I would have reported any driver doing that).


Brilliant.

Stand near any pelican crossing in London to witness this behaviour first hand.

And certainly anywhere where a pedestrain is still on a crossing at a junction whent he traffic light goes amber/green. For a start motocyclis sit there revving their engines to warn peds to get off the cross/not to start crossing when the light for the other jucntion goes amber, let alone when their one goes amber.

I travel for an hour through London on a pushbike, I see this all the time.

I had a word with a skip driver only the other week for aiming his truck at people still on the crossing, had one of then fallen or stumbled (likely, they were scarpering out of his way) he would've run them over for sure.

One of the worst episodes I saw is when a group of school children were crossing, they were scattered to the four winds with cars still coming at them as they huddled in groups in the road, some of the accompanying teachers were left crying by the side of the road.

And let's not start on people in/on vehicles/bikes aiming at people who are still on the zebra crossing hoping they're not going to be there when they get to it.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 22:22 
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Steve wrote:
or when people are still on the crossing?



You've got a problem there. There are crossings in London where if you showed a red light to road users whilst there were still people on the crossing you might as well not install a green light if you get what I mean.

Even I think making road users wait four or five hours before being allowed to continue is a bit over the top.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 22:32 
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Arising from a number of posts on this thread, I think it's fair to say that attitudes between different classes of road user tend to be much more aggressive and confrontational in London than in the rest of the country.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 22:38 
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PeterE wrote:
Arising from a number of posts on this thread, I think it's fair to say that attitudes between different classes of road user tend to be much more aggressive and confrontational in London than in the rest of the country.


Everything is more aggressive in London, it's survival of the fittest there, be it buying a bag of chips or crossing the road.


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PostPosted: Sat Jan 24, 2009 22:45 
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weepej wrote:
Stand near any pelican crossing in London to witness this behaviour first hand.

That's funny, I live in London and only today repeatedly used a pelican crossing (on a very busy road); there were no such problems.

weepej wrote:
And certainly anywhere where a pedestrain is still on a crossing at a junction whent he traffic light goes amber/green. For a start motocyclis sit there revving their engines to warn peds to get off the cross/not to start crossing when the light for the other jucntion goes amber, let alone when their one goes amber.

Well, pedestrians should not start crossing then their light stops being a constant green (those already on the crossing can continue); they should wait for the next phase - this is in the HC.

weepej wrote:
I travel for an hour through London on a pushbike, I see this all the time.

I had a word with a skip driver only the other week for aiming his truck at people still on the crossing, had one of then fallen or stumbled (likely, they were scarpering out of his way) he would've run them over for sure.

One of the worst episodes I saw is when a group of school children were crossing, they were scattered to the four winds with cars still coming at them as they huddled in groups in the road, some of the accompanying teachers were left crying by the side of the road.

That's 'hardly all the time'.
Like I already alluded to, I don't doubt there is the odd twonk who is inconsiderate/selfish (perhaps they're never around where I am), but would they be that way if our roads weren't so poorly managed? Speed cameras will stop them, wait, sorry I meant trafpol! I'm kinda used to having one replaced with the other!

weepej wrote:
And let's not start on people in/on vehicles/bikes aiming at people who are still on the zebra crossing hoping they're not going to be there when they get to it.

I admit that a lot of drivers don't know when they should yield at these crossings, but we're not talking about zebra crossings.

weepej wrote:
You've got a problem there. There are crossings in London where if you showed a red light to road users whilst there were still people on the crossing you might as well not install a green light if you get what I mean.

Even I think making road users wait four or five hours before being allowed to continue is a bit over the top.

As I said before, there are always alternatives for those who look for them. Obviously such a scheme would have a timeout catering for the reasonably slowest pedestrian; after that flash the pedestrian man such that no-one else is allowed to start crossing. If that fails then install pedestrian cameras ;)

This says nothing against the option of extending the 'pedestrian only' phase when people request it.

Needless impedance makes any person cranky, regardless of how they use the road.

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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 02:16 
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you Londoners need to sort yourself out! I'm glad that I live in the sticks!

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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 09:27 
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graball wrote:
you Londoners need to sort yourself out! I'm glad that I live in the sticks!


It's not as bad as it my post might make you believe, but it does happen.

When I'm on my pushbike I'm pretty much always at the lights, so am exposed to it more than if I was in the car.

I'll take the camera out next week and post up a few examples.


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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 11:16 
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Steve wrote:
I've had a very quick scan through the thread, but it might have been too quick because I found no relevant sentiments. Yes there are a few about retiming of lights and additional needless lights instead of roundabouts (which I agree with) but none about pedestrian lights; could you link to posts showing otherwise?


The Johnnytheboy/Weepj dialogue starting with Johnnytheboy's post on Thu Jan 22, 2009 20:09.

Steve wrote:
Sorry, but I think that observation is bubcus! Not once I have I ever seen motorists surging at pedestrians, making clear statements, or roaring off afterwards when crossing during during the flashing amber phase (I would have reported any driver doing that).


Well, we'll have to agree to disagree then! It's something I have seen and experienced regularly. I guess it could be mostly a London thing, but I've seen it happen in urban areas across the country.

Steve wrote:
No, there's always other alternatives if one looks deeply enough. Even if the observation claimed is true, is it not beyond the wit of man to find a way to retain the 'pedestrian only' phase for longer when people request it, or when people are still on the crossing?


Okay, there are numerous other options. We could build underpasses and bridges, or install electronically timed ped. phased lights (some kind of loops installed in the road, or camera operated). I suppose the question is, which of these is most practical and most acceptable to the everyone?

Steve wrote:
Almost everyone can win without invoking a sense of injustice! Only those who are determined to be utterly selfish are invariably those who have flourished thanks to misguided our speed camera policy.


You've hit the nail on the head with the 'utterly selfish' factions who cannot see why certain actions are carried out. I think I'd argue that this faction has flourished due to the massive dominance of car use in this country. But that's another debate! :wink:


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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 13:35 
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PeterE wrote:
Arising from a number of posts on this thread, I think it's fair to say that attitudes between different classes of road user tend to be much more aggressive and confrontational in London than in the rest of the country.



Yet in my other thread taken from CW and quoting the CTC - London has more cyclists than anywhere else and if you believed Ken .. "quieter roads due to his policies" :scratchchin:

All the posts seem to contradict the CTC and lend substance to the insurance company's claims. :popcorn:


Have to say that apart from London - not seen the same kind of aggression at crossings elesewhere.. Most pelicans are set at the average walking speed of 3- 4 mph. You should not start to cross on a flashing amber though. The flashing sequence is to allow people already on the crossing to continue. A car may only proceed if NO ONE is there and we class that as an offence under RTA s 25(5) and laws ZPPCRGD regs 20 -26
.

By the way - offences are endorsable with 3 points on PC10 .. PC20 and PC30.



I think London could o much by timing all lights to a green flow synchronisation to allow the traffic to disperse and clear .. then build in a set time for pedestrians. People get accustomed and thus able to plan journey times better if they know for sure they will be held up for x minutes at Y junction.

But then again - if you allow enough time for a journey on which you know there will be umpteen traffic lights - and you know volume will cause a queue - then you build into the journey time.

Half the accidents caused in the morning rush hour are caused by folk who just do not allow enough time for the journey and then fear being two minutes late for work :rolleyes:

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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 16:11 
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Peyote wrote:
Steve wrote:
I've had a very quick scan through the thread, but it might have been too quick because I found no relevant sentiments. Yes there are a few about retiming of lights and additional needless lights instead of roundabouts (which I agree with) but none about pedestrian lights; could you link to posts showing otherwise?

The Johnnytheboy/Weepj dialogue starting with Johnnytheboy's post on Thu Jan 22, 2009 20:09.

Irritatingly, there wasn't a post at 20:09; I guess you mean from the post starting at 19:09:58.
As I had suspected, the discussion was exactly as I had already described: the retiming of the phasing between traffic lights to needlessly hinder traffic progress - without changing the lengths/frequency of the pedestrian phases of individual lights. Pedestrians don't need sequenced lights, traffic does! Exactly this happened in Portsmouth at the time the London CC came into force. Prior to that, the phases of traffic signals were sequenced to allow free flow of the western traffic out of the city - all were green as you went out even though they also managed to cater for pedestrians; since then all those lights have been randomised such that each light is likely to be red as you reach them. See here for my previous rant (and follow the link I gave within it).

Peyote wrote:
Okay, there are numerous other options. We could build underpasses and bridges, or install electronically timed ped. phased lights (some kind of loops installed in the road, or camera operated). I suppose the question is, which of these is most practical and most acceptable to the everyone?

Yaaay, someone with a positive outlook! I think answers to this deserve a separate thread (this has nothing to do with 'bad cyclists'). Fancy starting one?

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 Post subject: Re: Bad cyclists
PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 16:59 
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Steve wrote:
Irritatingly, there wasn't a post at 20:09; I guess you mean from the post starting at 19:09:58.
As I had suspected, the discussion was exactly as I had already described: the retiming of the phasing between traffic lights to needlessly hinder traffic progress - without changing the lengths/frequency of the pedestrian phases of individual lights. Pedestrians don't need sequenced lights, traffic does! Exactly this happened in Portsmouth at the time the London CC came into force. Prior to that, the phases of traffic signals were sequenced to allow free flow of the western traffic out of the city - all were green as you went out even though they also managed to cater for pedestrians; since then all those lights have been randomised such that each light is likely to be red as you reach them. See here for my previous rant (and follow the link I gave within it).


Sorry Steve, your guess was correct , it was the 19:09 post.

Are we not confusing two separate situations here?

1) The rephasing of a series of traffic lights (for road traffic) for reasons currently not known, that appear to yourself (and the rest of PH) to be solely for the purpose of generating congestion.
2) The increasing length of time that the green man is displayed (on a pedestrian crossing) causing road traffic to be delayed an additional amount of time, thus appearing to be generating excessive congestion.

If I understand correctly (and I may well not be!), you're concerned about the former, whereas we were chatting about the latter?

Thanks for the links by the way, it certainly sounds like deliberately manufactured congestion, but I'm aware there are other sides to every story!

Steve wrote:
Yaaay, someone with a positive outlook! I think answers to this deserve a separate thread (this has nothing to do with 'bad cyclists'). Fancy starting one?


I don't think the current congestion discussion has a great deal to do with 'bad cyclists' either!


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PostPosted: Sun Jan 25, 2009 17:18 
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Peyote wrote:
Are we not confusing two separate situations here?

1) The rephasing of a series of traffic lights (for road traffic) for reasons currently not known, that appear to yourself (and the rest of PH) to be solely for the purpose of generating congestion.
2) The increasing length of time that the green man is displayed (on a pedestrian crossing) causing road traffic to be delayed an additional amount of time, thus appearing to be generating excessive congestion.

If I understand correctly (and I may well not be!), you're concerned about the former, whereas we were chatting about the latter?

I think you did get confused – but then I would say that even if I’m the one who is confused :)

I was originally concerning myself with a part of point 2 edit: but not point 2 in its entirety (not the 'excessive congestion' bit). Then point 1 was used as a response against point 2 - wrongly so (I believe JTB’s sentiments were misinterpreted – JTB can correct me if so). One wasn’t intended to be related to the other (one will have an impact on the other, but as I said: "that's tough").

PS: your description of point 1 isn’t entirely correct, not ‘solely for the purpose of generating congestion’. I believe the additional congestion is a means for justifying a further rollout of the congestion charge policy.

Peyote wrote:
Thanks for the links by the way, it certainly sounds like deliberately manufactured congestion, but I'm aware there are other sides to every story!

I would be amazed if there is another side to the rephasing of the lights on the DC in Portsmouth.

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