Safe Speed Forums

Assuming unrestricted road growth (because of the need to cater for all the cars), you're effectively creating a viscous circle. Unless we go back to the MalcolmW's "There are a finite number of drivers in the UK. If they all drive 16 hours per day this dictates a maximum road space requirement to accommodate them. This is a finite quantity of roads." How big would a new New Town have to be to cater for such a scenario? I just don't think it's practical or workable.



I'll have to take your word for this. Assuming it is true though, we're still seeing increased car use nationwide. We can either carry on building roads upto MalcolmW's theory, or we can think about other ways of living. Personally, I prefer the latter, but I can understand if you don't!

Sorry MM, I didn't know which part of your post to quote!

I'm afraid I have no experience of cycling abroad, I don't know about accident stats or anything like that from foreign climes either. Actually, about the only thing I do know about some parts of Europe is the outcome of homezones, which generally seems to be quite positive.

From the sounds of it though the British could learn a few lessons! (As usual from Europe)

That is only true if every driver always follows the same route every time he goes out. Which is a rare driver. Otherwise you have to supply each drivers road requirement in many places which greatly increases the amount of road. Even then there would be congestions at junctions so every junction would have to be a clover-leaf. Building more roads will encourage more no-drivers to start using their cars.

The required milage does, I admit, remain finite but it could require a land area greater than what is available, especially in large cities where it might be necessary to remove all the buildings

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

You cannot expect an twelve year old child, however well educated in road safety, to show the same degree of concentration, responsibility and competence as a fifty year old driver with over thirty years experience. All civilised societies recognize that special care must be given to the young and this is specially true if the adults choose to pilot dangerous missiles routinely.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Swiss have prosecuted two EIGHT year olds in the last two years for stepping out in front of a car at a pelican crossing und causing an accident. One driver colllided with a railing as he swerved to avoid her. The other driver was driving a bus. Two passengers had whiplash injuries when he braked in emergency und in bad weather conditions - it skidded - hitting the post of the pelican light.

They were right to prosecute those children who are as old as the responsible age for Scotland - but below England's age of criminal responsiblity.





Each child received a fine und a lesson which they will not forget in a hurry.


But then a parent has to do the training of these kids .. with input from their schools to enhance und further focus them.

But the onus lie with the parent. Me und the Mad Doc have to judge when our kittens are mature enough to cope with traffic without our constant supervision und some mature earlier than others as we are more than well aware .. given the fostering of other children.

Thus - if the child has not developped enough skill/confidence to use a road safely as a pedestrian or cyclist without supervision - then parent/carer must continue to supervise until able.


But then there are some really daft adults out there as I observed the other evening.

So we need to ram the Green Cross down all throats more often we do as a society.

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You grossly underestimate the capabilities of young humans!

If they lack "concentration, responsibility and competence" it is because they have never been taught it, NOT because they are incapable of it!

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"The road to a police state is paved with public safety legislation"

I would love to know at what point proponents of the "you can't build your way out of congestion" argument think the road programme should have stopped.

Is it about right now?

A few more bottlenecks need sorting?

Should the motorway network never have been built?

12 July 1980.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Good questions, I don't know enough about the history of roadbuilding to say a specific date. (What happended on 12th July 1980 dcbwhaley?)

At present though I'd say new road building project funds should be diverted to other projects designed to either make the existing roads more efficient, or to reduce the amount of traffic on existing roads to manageable levels.

Having said all that I'd like to think of myself as open minded and I'm sure there are some situations where a new road could be appropriate.

It is when I first did my current journey to work. The eighteen mile journey took me thirty minutes back then. Today, despite many millions spent on a bypass, it takes forty-five.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

A good start to reducing congestion would be to re-evaluate all traffic lights and see if they can be removed or replaced with a mini island. They seem to be sprouting up all over Telford, on junctions that have been congestion free for decades and suddenly....queues of traffic....if that isn't "manufactured" congestion then I don't know what is!

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

This is probably a good time to chuck in the fact (on that Tonight with Trevor Macdonald thing a year or two ago, IIRC) that due to recent road "improvements" in London (e.g. retiming of traffic lights etc.) the following has happened to traffic levels.

1. Congestion has got worse.
2. Traffic levels have decreased.

Now that takes some doing, and appears to show that you can build your way into congestion.

What you mean like upping theo duration of the all red phase so pedestrians can actually get across without being set upon by twenty agressive cars/motorcyclists/cyclists?

Don't worry, Boris is going to set them all back to "RUN FOR IT!" levels, the nice man.

I seem to remember being able to cross the road just fine when I worked in central London about ten years ago. What needed changing?

Yep, there was a news item not so long ago featuring a chap who couldn't get across the road in time, he had to make a detour of several hundred metres to get to a crossing that was phased with enough time for him to cross.

Unfortunately Boris does seem to be going back to making London car-centric, probably not the best way to encourage more people to walk. Still, it'll encourage folk to drive more and that's the main thing, apparently. It does surprise me how much power the motoring lobby wield, I suppose it shouldn't really...

Ahhh .. but in the current credit crunck - folk begin to realise what buying a new car means to the growth of an economy?


My wife and I can point to foreign and SWISS web NEWS /peer reviewed/expert reviewed pages which seem to show how much economic growth depends on the motor car.. and the lorry, and the motor bike.. more than it does on the pedal bike.

Indictment on how we ran our lives since Henry Ford founded his empire...


Maybe.. but life depends on such power and the earth and human enddeavours will always try to master its environmental dominance. I do not underestimate the human soul and its inheritant stoic desire to survive against all odds.







As said .. we are in an economic pickle. Cars .. they alkalise the acid of severe economic downturn of the life as we know it.

But then .. the current credit crunch could make us turn back to the slower pace of life..and no one seems to think that to be a benefit .. do they..

I post things for discussion. This is just a thought which popped into my head just now for the benefit of debate. It does not equate to what me and my wife may think in reality

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But is economic growth entirely a good thing?. Just how long can an economy go on growing at 5% pa in a finite environment? There really is a finite amount of oil, coal and other natural resources on the planet and whilst I needn't worry about it running out in my life time I suspect that your twins won 't thank you for the state in which we have let the planet. That, of course, makes me an corporate Nazi eco facist but I don't care.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Hang on a minute, am I living in a different country to you people ? I was always taught that pedestrians already on the crossing had right of way> So if you have started crossing then the cars cannot enter the crossing until it is clear. Now unless rules have changed since I learnt to drive then you Londoners need to get your facts right.

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My views do not represent Safespeed but those of a driver who has driven for 39 yrs, in all conditions, at all times of the day & night on every type of road and covered well over a million miles, so knows a bit about what makes for safety on the road,what is really dangerous and needs to be observed when driving and quite frankly, the speedo is way down on my list of things to observe to negotiate Britain's roads safely, but I don't expect some fool who sits behind a desk all day to appreciate that.

Ha ha haaa!!! Thems might be the rules graball but then so is keeping to the speed limit.

I rarely see people in vehicles or on bikes let pedestrians finish crossing when the light of a crossing is flashing amber before they roar off making it clear the peds should "GET OUT OF THE WAY!", and as for when it's just normal traffic lights most people are surging at the peds on the crossing before they've even gone green.

I wait myself but am often subject to angry toots from behind me (although pretty much if somebody does if I'm on me pushbike I sometimes turn round and start asking them why they're tooting which often sends them apolplectic with rage).

Also, and I've seen this happen several times, person in car waiting for peds to finish crossing are overtaken at speed by somebody approaching from behind who is "wondering" why the light is green and the car in fron of them isn't moving (although in their state of mind probably "wondered" before about a micro second before deciding that the car in front is "IN MY WAY!" and "MUST BE OVERTAKEN CLOSELY AND AT SPEED TO MAKE A POINT!" without any thought to consequences).

For balance I have to say that many peds enter the crossing when they possibly shouldn't (i.e. when the man has turned red).

An easy solution: install a switch for a pedestrian activated pedestrian phase. If that is implemented then there’s no reason for pedestrian risk or frustration. If not then either we’ve missed something or Boris has. Let’s put some of that CC money to good use.

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign