Safe Speed Forums

Cyclists targeted as Westminster Council goes after ‘lycra louts’

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/news/u ... 946724.ece

Should please a lot of people here but it does worry me that essentially untrained people should have the power to collect dines for moving traffic offences. The spokesperson for the council, on Radio 5 this morning, was talking about issuing penalty notices for failing to observe the Highway Code and for listening to iPods, neither of which is a direct violation of any law.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Quote: "it does worry me that essentially untrained people should have the power to collect dines for moving traffic offences. "

I entirely agree. It should worry everyone in this country that people are being fined
without a court case.

Justice was founded on Common Law, Do no harm. Do not steal. Do not make false contracts
but the people of this country have fallen for a giant deception.

Most people [but not Freemen] stand under Statutes, Acts and ByLaws .......
These are fictions built into the society or corperation you are all a member of.
The United Kingdom of GB.

People are being forced to pay on the spot fines not for commiting crimes
but for the profit of UK Plc. a corporation with its Law Society.

Most people accept that they are members of this corporation and accept its dubious benefits.

More and more "Crimes" will and are being created for profit.
Please Sir,
Can I park here?
Can I smoke in the pub?
Can I build a shed on MY land?
Can I drive without a seat belt?
Can I put garden rubbish in the bin?
Please Sir, Can I laugh?
Asbo bans laughing
http://thescotsman.scotsman.com/scotlan ... 4629265.jp

All these "Crimes" are purely ca$h generators for your masters.

Quote "was talking about issuing penalty notices for failing to observe the Highway Code and for listening to iPods, neither of which is a direct violation of any law."

EXACTLY

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Dave ~ Freeman on the Land
http://www.freemanhighland.co.uk/
A paradigm shift in law and politics

As freemen do not accept statute law would I be correct to say that they would seek no redress and ask for no punishment if some one offended against a statute to their disadvantage. Foot example: if I were to borrow your car without your permission (which is not theft in common law as I have no intention of permanent depriving you of your vehicle) you would not want me prosecuted for the statuary crime of Taking Without Consent?

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

"As freemen do not accept statute law would I be correct to say that they would seek no redress and ask for no punishment if some one offended against a statute to their disadvantage. Foot example: if I were to borrow your car without your permission (which is not theft in common law as I have no intention of permanent depriving you of your vehicle) you would not want me prosecuted for the statuary crime of Taking Without Consent?"

I would probably duff you up ........ on second thoughts no.

Theft is a crime in Common Law.
Do no harm. Do not steal. Do not make false contracts.

If you returned the car, polished, full of petrol, I would be satisfied.

I would NOT want you prosecuted for ANY statuary crime.

QUOTE "These statutes are not laws, they are given force only if the governed consent to them. ("Consent" is the key word). Common Law is the Law Of The Land. Nobody, no government, no administration, not even God himself, can revoke, change, amend, or remove those laws. They are natural laws, they are inherent, and we all know them. Just so that we are all dancing around the same handbag, they are as follows: do not cause, harm, injury or loss to a fellow human, and do not make mischief with your contracts (fraud).

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Dave ~ Freeman on the Land
http://www.freemanhighland.co.uk/
A paradigm shift in law and politics

You "consent" to them by remaining in a country where the majority of people, at a General Election have given their elected government the authority to make laws. What you Freemen are advocating is nothing new: the Greeks gave us the word ANARCHY.



That is not what common law means. See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Common_law. Common law is continually changed by judicial decisions. What you are talking about is more correctly known as natural law and is far from natural. It is very cultural dependant. What Aristotle saw as "natural laws" are different to what Aquinas says as "natural laws" and is different again to Hobbes idea of "natural law"

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

OK then natural laws.

I stand under the laws of physics, biology and my own laws.

"You "consent" to them by remaining in a country where the majority of people, at a General Election have given their elected government the authority to make laws."

Wrong. I do not consent by being in this world. I have revoked my consent.
I did not sign or fill in the Voter Registration form [last year under threat of £1000 fine]
or this year.
Most people have given their consent to be governed by the UK PLC. corporation
and thus are liable under UK PLc. laws.

All men are equal and no number of men, however many, can make laws for you.
Unless you consent. You may call it ANARCHY. I dont.

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Dave ~ Freeman on the Land
http://www.freemanhighland.co.uk/
A paradigm shift in law and politics

Balderdash. No two men are equal.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Consent is implicit by your continued presence.

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Regulation without education merely creates more criminals.

I am with dave here. I dont give my consent to a party to govern. I choose the lesser of the three evils at elections. If i join a political party I give my consent.

I pay my taxes, and I would rather raise taxes so all pay equally according to abillity. I support some taxes to be at the point of sale where they are luxuries.

I detest inefficent tax raising using fines and exhorbidant parking fees to raise funds. They tax people according to where they live and what they do. not on thier abillity to pay. It also costs too much to collect and enforce. A parking sheeme might cost 40% of what it collects. where an extra penny on income tax or vat would get 100% as the tax is already being collected.

Fines and penalties should not be every day life. They should be reserved for actual wrong doing. This goverment turn good people into criminals by making the law impossible to comply with 100% of the time,then fine them.

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Speed limit sign radio interview. TV Snap Unhappy
“It has never been the rule in this country – I hope it never will be - that suspected criminal offences must automatically be the subject of prosecution” He added that there should be a prosecution: “wherever it appears that the offence or the circumstances of its commission is or are of such a character that a prosecution in respect thereof is required in the public interest”
This approach has been endorsed by Attorney General ever since 1951. CPS Code

BTW. I confess I'm finding it difficult to follow the thread because Tax isn't using the Quote button. Not having a dig at you mate, and I do agree with some of what you say, but I would use the word "anarchy". Sorry, but if it looks like a duck and quacks I’m going to call it a duck.

Would you be so ready to forgive someone for knicking your car if you needed it for an emergency and found it wasn't there? Did you sign up for marriage or do you believe anyone is up for grabs with consent?

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The views expressed in this post are personal opinions and do not necessarily represent the views of Safe Speed.
You will be branded a threat to society by going over a speed limit where it is safe to do so, and suffer the consequences of your actions in a way criminals do not, more so than someone who is a real threat to our society.

Cyclists are party to the rules of the Highway code as are horse riders, the problem at the moment is that there is punishment, punishment, punishment, and no education, encouragement enthusiasm to do the 'right' thing, no reminders or warnings, just do as we say or suffer.
I am disappointed to see 'fines' 'just' to be issued I would rather see, as with all road users a good way to educate and encouragement to 'do the right thing' first, then a fine IF the message seems to need to be reinforced.
I would rather see Police on bikes that can follow errant cyclists first that can educate and say - if you don't do the right thing then you may face a fine. With local bobbys they might see them again and that has been the true strength of the local bobby, they got to know their patch very well.
We need persistent offenders reminded that they need to obey the Laws of the Land or face possible fines and punishment, but fair and proportionate enforcement is deemed fair what we are liekly to see id the same nightmare now imposed onto cyclists, a fine before they have barely dismounted than education.
For many even just to be stopped by any law enforcement body (rather ONLY have fully trained Police on the roads = no confusion etc) is a scary event and one that will see many remember it for many months / years to come. They forget just how much power they have. Wielding it in an over and unnecessary manner is not to the good of anyone.
I do think that cyclists will get the message however but I hope there will be masses of publicity so that everyone will be very aware, and given the chance to first do the right thing first.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

No. Cyclists and horse riders are only advised by the Highway Code. They are not bound to follow its advise. The Highway Code is not[ a set of rules binding upon all road users. It is a set of guidelines, what in industry speak would be called a "description of best practice". There is no one in this country who can honestly say that they have not, often with good reason, ignored some of those guidelines. The idea of issuing an FPN for not (HC70) parking your cycle in a conspicuous place is plainly ludicrous.

As is the idea of issuing FPNs to cyclists listening to iPods, especially when many motorists use ICE equipment of great power without redress.

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When I see an adult on a bicycle, I do not despair for the future of the human race. H.G. Wells
When I see a youth in a motor car I do d.c.brown

Wrong - the Highway Code here is full of Rules and regulations AND advice:


The point of the Highway Code is as it states to reduce accidents and failure to comply to it and new rules may be used to "cause a person to be prosecuted".
It is right and proper that there are clear and precise Laws, this helps to Court to decide clearly whether an offense has or has not been committed. If and when new rules are introduced the point is that they are there to help reduce accidents.
I agree that the 'real world' and the mass of disproportionate 'offenses' have become completely out of hand.
When I rode my bike in London my walkman headset was just in front of my ears so that I could properly and necessarily hear the traffic but have it slightly dulled by the music and vice versa - it was sensible and worked very well.
Their point is that when a cyclist is playing an ipod loud and directly into the ear - they may miss the noise of an engine (vehicle nearby), a honk or a yell that might result in them having an accident. I do not agree that cyclists directly listen to music while travelling - a nearby speaker (headset) is reasonable and still allows for safety. A person in a car listening to loud music still has good vision and a gap around their car - on a bike you are more vulnerable and need to be responsible for your own safety.
H70 is not quite as you describe :

Their emphasis is that people will not accidentally fall over or hit your bike, your emphasis was to find a conspicuous parking place.

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Safe Speed for Intelligent Road Safety through proper research, experience & guidance.

You vote for "the lesser of the three evils at elections."
I am glad you see that political parties are evil. Just shades of your masters agenda.
There is not on whit of differance between the SNP & BNP
they all want your honestly earned income - they want to spend it how they wish.

"If i join a political party I give my consent."
Wrong - If you register on the Voters Role you give your consent to be governed,
whichever Party that is is taking your power, voice and money.
You gave your consent you are a member of that society.

Freemen withdraw their consent. Slaves submit to masters.

"Fines and penalties should not be every day life."
Correct - Statutes, Acts and ByLaws are penalties handed down by your Masters.

Pretty cold tonight.

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Dave ~ Freeman on the Land
http://www.freemanhighland.co.uk/
A paradigm shift in law and politics

Perhaps, to those who want anarchy. For the rest of society they are (ideally) a godsend (yes we don't live in an ideal world ... but ...).

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Views expressed are personal opinions and are not necessarily shared by the Safe Speed campaign

Memory might be playing up ,but I seem to remember two of the "selling points " for PCSO was to do with ,a lot of pedestrians( certainly mine ,when on foot) pet hates -dog muck and cycle problems .Dog messing -that's become a council tax earner AFAIK, so what'shappened about errent cyclists - and what do they intend to do about those who don't know what a no cycle sign looks like .

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lets bring sanity back to speed limits.
Drivers are like donkeys -they respond best to a carrot, not a stick .Road safety experts are like Asses - best kept covered up ,or sat on

Actually my Liebster - if the Highway Code has YOU MUST und has the related paragraph of the Road Traffic Act beneath - then the cyclist ist not advised - but REQUIRED BY LAW to comply with the law .. the paragraphs relating to red traffic lights und other road signs apply

The advisory ones should be adhered to as failure to do so can adversely affect any court case or compo claim in the event of any accident or even incident...








As for common law und the emergence of common law....

It take a ruddy foreigner to point out the blinkin' obvious to the natives

(I think I am sharpening claws... but no matter... I read a book whilst recovering from a recent illness .... it was a book on the law .. I but ended up reading the funnier history bits instead.... (We have to know about the law
professionally in any case - und we have the feline minds of curiosity anyway as you know )

Actually - European und Scottish law are based on Roman Law. But England und Wales did not have same influence (which ist why USA has legal system more in-line with ours (court precedence/evolvement via case law)

What happen was local justice und each community had its local customs und its own law court. William 1 decreed that he would not subject the lands to Norman laws und allow customary justice to remain. ONLY .. the Normans being well .. FRENCH ... developped a central government - a strong one und over the next 200 years or so gradually increased their control over the administration of law. This led to decline of the local courts.

England then had central courts - sitting permanently at Westminster - und the King's Council dealt with the legal disputes. This led to ROYAL judges being sent out to preeside over courts across the Kingdom of England. These courts were known as the ASSIZES.

These travelling judges learned about the local customs und their court decisions started to unify the common customary laws across the kingdom und they began to apply the generalised customary rules in all cases rather than rely in every case upon enquiring into local customs. The King also helpe by making laws which were to apply nationally und by the nationwide courts. The different und differing local customs began to be replaced by a body of rules which applied throughout the whole country und known as the common law. This was completed by the end of C13.

The formulation of common took place when there were few statutes/other forms of written law. The judges looked to previous decisions for guidance so as to maintain consistency. This became what ist known by lawyers as the DOCTRINE OF PRECEDENCE und the hieararchy of courts und ratio decidendi /obiter dicat of the judges in the Higher or equal courts bind und set the precendents which can only be overturned by higher courts und on the finding of fact und FRESH EVIDENCE

I could start showing off on what I know about Ewuity und law merchants und how Statute Law und EU law affect the legal system of England und Wales und Scotland ..

There are some natural laws .. laws of science - physics/chemistry/biology/medicine/maths/economics all somehow come to mind

There are also natural laws born of our survival instinct und basic instincts of right und wrong und our sociable instincts as a cultured und polite society...which require us all to pull und work together in harmony to maintain a balance equilibrium - nicht? Und one of the sets of rules engraved in stainless steel keyfobs ist our C O A S T system which allow us to drive safely und have a right good time as well.. without getting into bother licencewise

Purrrrr! I should stop reading heavy books when recovering from serious illness und concentrate on steamy Jacky Collins instead...

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Nicht ganz im Lot!
Ich setze mich immer wieder in die Nesseln! Der Mad Doc ist mein Mann! Und ich benutzte seinen PC!

UND OUR SMILEYS? Smile ... und the the world smiles with you.
Smiley guy seen when you read
Fine me for Safe Speed
(& other good causes..)

Greatest love & Greatest Achievements Require Greatest Risk
But if you lose the driving plan - don't lose the COAST lesson.
Me?
Je ne regrette rien!